Always a Wasp

General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 07:39:43 PM

Title: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 07:39:43 PM
Be nice if Dai wasn't so diplomatic ...given how directly impacted we were with Daly.

Anyway, Salarycens been done to death already, time for Wasps stuff.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 07:55:53 PM
push over from 22, eat that Exeter
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 07:56:21 PM
Can someone else confirm I just saw driving maul from Wasps or did I knod off and dream it
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 07:57:52 PM
The missus just sent me a video, and yes you did

and then we gave away a penalty
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 08:15:56 PM
Sounds like we're having composure issues, is that what it looks like?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 08:17:03 PM
How many mistakes are we making, do we not want to win this game
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 08, 2019, 08:21:45 PM
Sops seems to be playing well. Some of his kicks have been really impressive, and that tap tackle.

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 08:26:51 PM
Scrum going well
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 08:28:32 PM
Sounds like we need to learn to keep order and to catch
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 08:29:07 PM
We do one thing right then make multiple mistakes, it is very frustrating
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
Clearly no-one read the off-side rules during pre-season
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 08:35:34 PM
Missing the first up tackles is causing us problems.

Have to say Gopps not having a stellar game so far..Intercept and some wry kicking. Scrum going very well though.
If we can stop giving penalties we can compete in this game. I'd like to see the ball actually get to one of the wingers too.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 08, 2019, 08:37:22 PM
Our main issue today is handling when the game opens up. Don't know whether communication is playing a large issue or not. I have noticed a couple of times that Gopps and Sops have different plays in mind which seems to be causing a bit of confusion
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 08:57:05 PM
Discipline is becoming a real issue now. We are gifting sale the win here
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 08:57:54 PM
We'll get a card soon
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 08, 2019, 09:07:56 PM
the boys look knackered
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 09:09:29 PM
Bloody hell how many offside are we go to give
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 09:10:11 PM
If we did not give a penalty away each restart we would do a lot better. Brilliant try though.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 09:14:50 PM
13 penalties already, the discipline is a joke. What hell is going on, we are gifting this game
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 09:15:37 PM
Kiberige finish was brilliant.
But penalties...we have to be topping the tables, its getting ridiculous now.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 08, 2019, 09:18:50 PM
Doggo has been very good this game. I nice to see someone contesting kicks
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 08, 2019, 09:23:34 PM
Kibby's try has to be up for try of the week
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 08, 2019, 09:24:41 PM
Kibby is a proper finisher..that try wasn't even on.
Agree Dog done good with little ball he's had.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Chunky24 on November 08, 2019, 09:34:28 PM
Dai needs to take JTA to his northern hemisphere scrummaging school.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 09:42:31 PM
There was some good play and then they blew it by indiscipline. Infuriating.

going to be infuriating viewing tomorrow
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Neils on November 08, 2019, 09:45:42 PM
Every kick off is long both kickers - why? Nobody gets there. Lima down under did lovely hanging kick offs.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: wasps on November 08, 2019, 09:47:35 PM

Usual Friday night shit
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: AKWasp on November 08, 2019, 09:47:36 PM
Few positives have to be that we were in a game against a team that many people believe to be much better than us. Strategically we werenít a million miles away and pack looks much stronger. In attack we look closer to the wasps of old

Negatives are itís the same old missed tackles and ill discipline hurting us but thatís down to individuals.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: will311293 on November 08, 2019, 09:48:49 PM
Sadly i think this is going to be the same issue all season... frustrating night not for the first time.

we look toothless in the backline at the moment... bar a few..
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: HDAWG on November 08, 2019, 09:48:56 PM
We gave away 19 penalties!? That is awful discipline from really stupid mistakes. Constant offside, back chatting ref and more. Discipline cost us. Very stupid and frustrating.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 08, 2019, 09:49:34 PM
the better team won today. Far too many penalties and handling was poor. But I do think, as Dai will probably say, we are getting better as there were a few positives today
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 08, 2019, 09:52:41 PM
Not quite sure what to make of that. I think the ref wasn't helpful - but you have to adapt - even if that means he might not have read Law 14 and 15 recent times....the breakdown was a mess. Even Austin called a couple right. 

But no excuse for the loss - put ourselves into the game and then looked defensively, like we'd met in the car park too often. Aimless kicking and no real plan for ball in hand. I could sense Dai's frustrations with the lateral ball, but surely, you back to basics and just get some field position?

My glass feels half empty rather, it looked like we were kicking on and then managed to lose all direction.

I wasn't convinced, if we were offside that we were alone.....

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 08, 2019, 09:53:23 PM
At times you wonder if in October they met up, introduced themselves and did a show and tell about what they did during pre-season.
Then at other times they do some great stuff.

There is just some magic glue missing. Is iust just that we have so many new at one time and they need more real playing time together?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 08, 2019, 09:58:24 PM
Well that was truly awful, some players Iím afraid are not good enough to play for us.

The New Zealand prop who I canít be bothered to name is awful what the hell did Dai see in him. Terrible scrummaging, how is he 2nd choice, some very dumb discipline play.

We are in serious trouble even with Saracens losing 35 points.

Iím sorry guys but Iím really angry with our play and how we are coached.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Mellie on November 08, 2019, 09:59:39 PM
2 poor sides on a bad day. Unfortunately Wasps were worse. Last 3 minutes sums it all up.

Hopeless kick by Searle nowhere close enough to the Sale line to set up a driving maul try to draw the game with a man advantage. Inadequate support at breakdown 2 phases  later to give away another penalty and concede field position.  Stupid indiscipline for red card and penalty, which Sale kick to deny even a losing bonus point.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Heathen on November 08, 2019, 10:11:26 PM
Sadly we got what we deserved - nil points.

Not doing the basics and unforced errors are letting us down badly. And not for the first time, the backs look as though they could not punch a hole in a paper bag - other than Kibi.

I fear for us, next week in Bordeaux.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Wasp250 on November 08, 2019, 10:36:14 PM
Sadly we got what we deserved - nil points.

Not doing the basics and unforced errors are letting us down badly. And not for the first time, the backs look as though they could not punch a hole in a paper bag - other than Kibi.

I fear for us, next week in Bordeaux.


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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Wasp250 on November 08, 2019, 10:38:03 PM
Even Steve Vaughan is Iím impressed with Dia


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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Wasp250 on November 08, 2019, 10:48:12 PM
Not impressed


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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on November 08, 2019, 11:03:25 PM
Even Steve Vaughan is Iím impressed with Dia


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Where does this come from?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Wasp250 on November 08, 2019, 11:04:49 PM
Steve Vaughan


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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Steve from Cov on November 08, 2019, 11:56:06 PM
Well that was truly awful, some players Iím afraid are not good enough to play for us.

The New Zealand prop who I canít be bothered to name is awful what the hell did Dai see in him. Terrible scrummaging, how is he 2nd choice, some very dumb discipline play.

We are in serious trouble even with Saracens losing 35 points.

Iím sorry guys but Iím really angry with our play and how we are coached.

It was Ben Harris that struggled at scrum-time not JT-A.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Shugs on November 09, 2019, 12:30:01 AM
JTA was ok I thought and Harris was the issue. All you need to know about this is 19 penalties. 10 times out of 10 19 pens will get you no points. What on earth were we doing two mins from the end??
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: westwaleswasp on November 09, 2019, 01:53:47 AM
We seem to have reached a stage with Lima that when he has a mediocre/middling- ok - solid does the basics right but offers not much else- game it can be hailed as a success. So I guess we can be happy there as he was solid. However, whatever wavelength he is on it was not tuned into by Jimmy, who looked a fair bit off the pace I feel.  Searle offered nothing much either too, sadly, the backs as a whole looked like a bit of a brown shower at times, with intermittent bright sparks being down to individuals' brilliance rather than coherent game plans.

Still I think the recent debates over 8 have been put to bed- he looked fab, and we know at least one of our first choice wingers- what a finish. MM looks the part too, at least at first glance.

I fear that 1-3 and the matches to come puts us up against it in terms of pressure- which will adversely impact performance given the fixtures to come- does anyone else feel that way too? Or are people confident that it will turn around?
Is it worth experimenting with the team or sticking with the current approach? Is Dai trying to play a more kicking-based game or is it a reaction by the players as we seem to kick more?
I would genuinely like to hear other's views on this.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 09, 2019, 04:02:35 AM
It looks to me as if the players either or some of all:

Lack confidence in the plays they are being trained to make
Lack confidence in those around them and their ability to make the plays
Lack awareness/experience of each other in a match situation

We are seeing great moments with large amounts of disjointed play. Kicking seems often to be the result of running out of ideas, not always but often.

With the SalarySins as an example, they have a long established and stable squad and play a game where each does his part and has confidence in the others around them to do theirs, so fewer individuals trying to take matters into their own hands, and so a reduction in silly penalties (individuals rushing out of the line and getting pinged for example) and the end result is a team that is greater than the sum of its parts.

At present our team is less than the sum of its parts.

Could be poor training, could be lack of match play together, lack of confidence. I am sure that the players we have can play as a far better team.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Eezamarlowman on November 09, 2019, 05:20:45 AM
Poor discipline, huge amount of penalties conceded. Managed to score two tries which is a bonus, but still come away with Nil points. Gonna be a long season, again ! By my reckoning that makes 7 wins from 17 games over a 12 month period. I wonder how we could possibly change our fortune......(please refer to specific thread from last week)
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 07:20:04 AM
Even Steve Vaughan is Iím impressed with Dia


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Where does this come from?

I'm not sure I understand what this even means.. "Is I'm impressed".. are you saying he is impressed or is unimpressed.. and is that referring to Dai (Dia?) or Diamond (Steve)?

If he is impressed than I can only assume he was asked a direct question from a journalist looking for someone in the club to put a knife into Dai.. but obviously, Vaughan isn't going to say anything of the sort.. whether that is a genuine belief or not who knows.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Heathen on November 09, 2019, 07:48:13 AM
Something has to change, but what?

We need something or someone to gel it all together.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 09, 2019, 07:51:22 AM
Poor discipline, huge amount of penalties conceded. Managed to score two tries which is a bonus, but still come away with Nil points. Gonna be a long season, again ! By my reckoning that makes 7 wins from 17 games over a 12 month period. I wonder how we could possibly change our fortune......(please refer to specific thread from last week)

I think you will find itís 7 wins and 17 loses in the last 12 months.

Unfortunately we have lost a lot of good players in the last 2 years and replaced them with average championship players.

A lot of players will have signed in the last 2 years are not premiership level. Maybe we canít afford quality players and have to shop at the bargain centre, it has just been a quick drop and I canít see a way out with our current set.

I really do feel that this is going to be Launchburys last season. He will definitely not want to play championship rugby and not want to keep playing in the challenge cup.

We are miles away from top 6, we need so many better players.

For me we need better 10, 12, 13, 11 or 14 big strong a fast ideally, a lock. I do like a lot of things about our new 8 but hell does he give away a lot of penalties.

That is a minimum of 6 players needed, not championship level for us. JTA is also not premiership level, Harris has played enough good games in the past for me.

Obviously the coaching set up is shocking, can anyone say it is not the worst in the league.

Iím truly gutted with wasps at the moment I use to love going to games home and away, even when we were struggling at Adams Park. For me we had a better team then and we still finished 11th
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Dgwasp on November 09, 2019, 07:52:05 AM
Half decent start, followed by poor handling to give away an interception try, some promise in the second half to get back into the game stymied by constant penalties being given away.  It is the promise of perhaps coming back that really kills you.

Then to give away the final penalty and LBP like that was just dumb.  We're seemingly incapable of playing smart rugby and it is getting us turned over in what should be closer score lines. In a relegation battle bonus points matter so we can't afford to be throwing them away.

That said, Sale away is not usually a happy hunting ground, their backup to Faf looked pretty decent and onto next week.  We will see if we have the capability to turn our discipline around.

We've never really had a good kicking game under Dai and it has been more about ball in hand.  So I am worried about the extra kicking we've seen so far this season and especially last night.  Hammersly and Du Preez just kicked us backwards almost every time.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Wasp250 on November 09, 2019, 07:57:43 AM
Even Steve Vaughan is Iím impressed with Dia


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Where does this come from?

I'm not sure I understand what this even means.. "Is I'm impressed".. are you saying he is impressed or is unimpressed.. and is that referring to Dai (Dia?) or Diamond (Steve)?

If he is impressed than I can only assume he was asked a direct question from a journalist looking for someone in the club to put a knife into Dai.. but obviously, Vaughan isn't going to say anything of the sort.. whether that is a genuine belief or not who knows.
Sorry typo I did correct it with the very next message.  Steve Is not impressed with Dia.

No Journalist involved in this information source.



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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Dgwasp on November 09, 2019, 08:05:37 AM
Why be so cryptic..? If you can't just come out and say why, or how you know SV has a problem with Dai (or Dia) it is just muck spreading for both parties.

There may well be an issue, but equally, there may not.  Until I see something quoted I'll go with this being pure speculation for now.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 08:12:05 AM
Something has to change, but what?

We need something or someone to gel it all together.

I've had 5 attempts at typing something positive about the start of the season but I'm struggling.

I think our pack is there or thereabouts. The lack of creativity and penetration in the backs is worrying.

Errors and penalties tend to come from pressure (lack of concentration/fitness) but 19 in one game is startling.

The lack of leadership or a real rugby brain on the field is a massive problem.

Apparently Sale's hooker has been having a torrid time recently with his lineout throwing and yet for most of the game we didn't contest the lineouts.

We executed a perfect driving maul early in the game and then didn't really use that tactic after that.

Unless something remarkable occurs, the players we currently have in the squad are the ones that are going to have to dig us out of the hole.

I'm a believer in apportioning on field performances (good or bad) on the shoulders of the players and not blame the coaches. Coaches can't catch, kick or tackle during the game... but.. I'm now beginning to think Wasps need a major coaching shake up.

Have some of the coaches been there too long, become too comfortable, too familiar in their surroundings, become stale in their approach to training and tactics and methods?

How long have Titterall and Blackett been there? Only a few weeks ago I said it would be better for the club to keep Dai but perhaps change dept coaches but now I'm even questioning that

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Dgwasp on November 09, 2019, 08:22:21 AM
Sadly BG I understand where you are coming from.  We are not playing smart and in every game this season I think we've gifted a lot of points to the opposition or left points on the field.  This doesn't seem to be improving.

In terms of ability to score, this hit me last season where we had the ball in the oppositon 22 after 80 and just needed a score in 3-4 games and in each we got nothing.

We used to have an ability to get players from the championship and get them to kick on I to good premier players e.g. Reider and Thompson.  However now we are turning former ABs into players who we are questioning the quality of.  This is not the wasps I know and we seem to be forcing a plan on players who look like they don't understand what they, or each other should be doing.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: HDAWG on November 09, 2019, 08:23:50 AM
BG, think Titterrell Should stay, but we need another forwards coach. Starting to think we need a new defence coach, backs coach and improved DOR/head coach approach that hopefully Vaughan can help implement. Whether that's with or without Dai I don't know.

As for other people's comments about players, maybe better delegation of salaries could help. Shields is a good player, but is he really worth the amount we pay him compared to Willis? Sopoaga definitely isn't worth the money we pay him. Same with Fekitoa. Dai needs to try and balance the salaries better in the squad to able to afford better players e.g. lock and a future 12.

I don't think the squad is that bad, but I do think experienced lock, creative twelve and a cheaper fly half should be top of the list.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 08:31:02 AM

Sorry typo I did correct it with the very next message.  Steve Is not impressed with Dia.

No Journalist involved in this information source.



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[/quote]

Ah .. yes I noticed the correction.. although you're still typing Dia, or is that what you and Steve call Dai (Dia - dire... er.. diarrhea??)

Vaughan wouldn't have said anything to a journalist so unless he said it to you directly.. this rumour has come 2nd/3rd hand, in which case its nothing more than hearsay or someone trying to stir up trouble.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Sting on November 09, 2019, 08:37:46 AM

Usual Friday night shit

The players we have are capable of playing much better than we are seeing.
The issue must be coaching and game plan.
Slow ball in midfield, 2 phases then cross field kick (without even thinking is it on).
1st phase ball pass along the line to the wing..again without thinking.
Aimless long kicking giving away possession..no hanging balls or kick chase.
Narrow defensive line allowing opposition overlap of 2 or even 3 players on the outside.
Ball carriers being given too little support etc etc.
The errors are coming from the players not happy/comfortable with the plays. Players playing as they were told and not adapting to whats in front of them.
This is made worse by lack onfield leadership. Dan should be relived of this burden (he looks stressed, arm waving and hesitant and slow ball). Shields would get.my vote for captain or Willis.  Sale were there to be taken. dog will get stick for moment madness but he did not lose us the game.
Earlier the pack executed a great driving maul. Then with a few minutes to go and a lineout metres from the line and opposition missing 2 players we opt to go off the top, Flament gets turned over and the chance for 7 points gone.
Dai's verdict? We were the better tram "pretty much", lots of positives etc etc.
Time for Dai to face the harsh reality anf make changes to the coaching team and playing style.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 09:00:11 AM
I have noticed something that Wasps have been doing and that's off-the-top lineout ball being thrown to no 2 at the front of the lineout.

Off the top means the ball is caught at the top of the jump then thrown/passed down to the 9 whilst the jumper is still in the air, creating quick ball for the 9.. the problem with doing that  is the 9 is receiving the ball at the very front of the lineout and has to pass the length of the lineout and then the additional gap to the 10.. by which time the defending forwards (backrow) who were standing at the back of the lineout almost arrive at the flyhalf at the same time the 10 catches the ball.

If the defending backrow are very alert that can sometimes intercept the ball as it travels from the 9 to the 10.

Normally a front lineout ball is caught and driven.. to be followed by perhaps a box kick, sneaky move around the blindside or a pick and go by the fowards to move in field.

I don't know whether Wasps do it as a planned move or not, but it seems like an odd tactic
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Chunky24 on November 09, 2019, 09:18:56 AM
Defence is being mentioned a lot here but although we shipped a lot of penalties last night we conceded one try away from home which came from an interception. That certainly doesn't mean the defence is perfect at all and there is a lot of scramble defence but I just felt like trying to find something positive to say!
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 09:25:00 AM
I just felt like trying to find something positive to say!

The away strip looks quite good
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 09, 2019, 09:53:01 AM

Shields is a good player, but is he really worth the amount we pay him compared to Willis? Sopoaga definitely isn't worth the money we pay him. Same with Fekitoa. Dai needs to try and balance the salaries better in the squad to able to afford better players e.g. lock and a future 12.

I don't think the squad is that bad, but I do think experienced lock, creative twelve and a cheaper fly half should be top of the list.

My other key concern is that we're managing to turn some good players - like Brad - into looking like very average players. It might have been the consequence of playing for 'Canes, but as their leader, he was an outstanding player.

Having been rather unwell for a bit - I did get to watch a load of SH rugby - and was really delighted with the signing - he didn't look out of place going straight into the England squad and was an injury away from going to Japan.

But whatever we're doing, we're managing to make such an asset look average

For me, that is starting to look like a problem with the "management" rather than the players. I've been impressed with the change brought to other Prem clubs over the last seasons or so such that there are few if any easy games - I hoped the LI game was an aberration having watched other round one games.....but it seemed not.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 09, 2019, 10:04:38 AM
Defence is being mentioned a lot here but although we shipped a lot of penalties last night we conceded one try away from home which came from an interception. That certainly doesn't mean the defence is perfect at all and there is a lot of scramble defence but I just felt like trying to find something positive to say!

Because we gave such a ridiculous amount of penalties away it actually stopped Sale from scoring more trys. Unfortunately I still saw a lot of holes in our defence. We should of had a couple of yellow cards, especially cruise who went straight into the side of the maul
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Mellie on November 09, 2019, 10:20:53 AM
The problem appears to be a mix of coaching, game plan and players not adapting to what is happening on the pitch.

Confidence comes from practicing until able to execute accurately under pressure. If players are not capable of that get better players. If what they practice is not working in a match situation get better coaches.

Biggest issue for me is we have no dominance in the collisions either with or without the ball. That kills go forward momentum and gives backs no option other than to go sideways as a result. It also leads to penalties when players deperately try to compete against the odds. Coaches must address this immediately.

Coaches and players must become adaptable at reading the game with leaders able to change things up on the pitch.

Thought Sops was having an ok game when he was subbed. Billy came on and was obviously told to kick more; which he did continually and badly. Nobody changed it when it didnt work. We could have nicked some points at the end but we're not capable.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rossm on November 09, 2019, 10:24:35 AM
Thought Sops was having an ok game when he was subbed. Billy came on and was obviously told to kick more; which he did continually and badly. Nobody changed it when it didnt work. We could have nicked some points at the end but we're not capable.

I was surprised that Lima was subbed with just over 20 minutes to go. Though behind, we had scored 2 tries and I thought that Billy came on to up the attacking pace. Wrong again, Ross :(
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 09, 2019, 10:39:50 AM
Ross - I had the same thought and was wrong too....Billy looked hopeless and we looked rudderless
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: westwaleswasp on November 09, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
My thoughts exactly, Ross.
I expected Billy to try to get us moving forward with the ball, rather than the ball moving and us chasing, badly. It is not his game, surely.
What does Dai want us to play like?

I think the realisation is starting to dawn that we are in trouble, pretty much across the fan base. You can almost tell from the number of down votes or whatever they are called here- they seem to have increased for everyone in the last couple of weeks.
I am not a big fan of them- I think people should thank by saying " thank you" and agree by saying so, and I can't see the people posting on some of my devices when I have it in desktop mode, but they act as a sort of guide as to how upset people are feeling. Judging by the numbers next to the names people are feeling sore.
Ironically, the DW site, bar a couple of individuals, seem far more united - the doomsayers seem to have been vindicated to a greater or lesser extent.


Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: westwaleswasp on November 09, 2019, 11:03:45 AM
Well that was truly awful, some players Iím afraid are not good enough to play for us.

The New Zealand prop who I canít be bothered to name is awful what the hell did Dai see in him. Terrible scrummaging, how is he 2nd choice, some very dumb discipline play.

We are in serious trouble even with Saracens losing 35 points.

Iím sorry guys but Iím really angry with our play and how we are coached.

It was Ben Harris that struggled at scrum-time not JT-A.
I am no expert, but the player ratings in the Cov Tel have JTA as a 4. I don't have the eye for a scrum, having never been in one, so can't comment myself as to what the problm was beyond the fact that we went from obvious dominance to area of weakness.


Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Neils on November 09, 2019, 11:09:16 AM
I think Bobby Bridge sums it up well with his comments and markings. Cant be too much fun for him on a cold Friday night.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rossm on November 09, 2019, 11:17:01 AM
Bobby's comments and ratings:

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-player-ratings-sale-sharks-17216479 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-player-ratings-sale-sharks-17216479)
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Shugs on November 09, 2019, 11:35:09 AM
What's a bit worrying is that we seemed to enter the season low on confidence. It's no good picking Sopoaga out again - he had very little go forward ball to conjure with. Also, I think I must be watching a different Shields to most. For me he's been outstanding. It's a lot of messy, gritty stuff but it's necessary. At the moment we have a real brittleness about us and what we really need to work on is being more clinical.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Well that was truly awful, some players Iím afraid are not good enough to play for us.

The New Zealand prop who I canít be bothered to name is awful what the hell did Dai see in him. Terrible scrummaging, how is he 2nd choice, some very dumb discipline play.

We are in serious trouble even with Saracens losing 35 points.

Iím sorry guys but Iím really angry with our play and how we are coached.

It was Ben Harris that struggled at scrum-time not JT-A.
I am no expert, but the player ratings in the Cov Tel have JTA as a 4. I don't have the eye for a scrum, having never been in one, so can't comment myself as to what the problm was beyond the fact that we went from obvious dominance to area of weakness.

I was a scrumhalf and also a flanker so I've seen props at work.

I've seen huge monster tall props humiliated by shorter lighter props.

Ideally a tighthead needs to keep his side down low (right shoulder down at contact which negates what the opposite loosehead wants to do) and arrow in between his opposite loosehead and hooker as that makes it a lot more difficult for the hooker and it also tends to steer their scrum back to where your scrumhalf is.

The opposition loosehead will want to get our tighthead's right shoulder up and so that he can drive into his chest twisting him (this is why looseheads get pinged for stepping to the left so much.. which is what Mako does, and this is why Dan Cole ended up either in the air, against Beast, or choosing to collapse it and hope the ref resets it) and then the flanker behind the tighthead and the 2nd row on that side have nothing to push against.

My theory is JTA is too tall for tighthead. To get his shoulders at the same height as the opposition loosehead he either has to start slightly hinged at the hips or put his feet further back.. at that point he's relying on his opposite loosehead to keep the pressure on.. all the loosehead does then is release the pressure slightly.. JTA over balances, turns his right shoulder  in and goes to ground.. penalty.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Fats on November 09, 2019, 11:55:06 AM
Who was(were) the worst offender(s) in conceding penalties?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 09, 2019, 11:59:20 AM
I think it was a large proportion were conceded by our back row. Number 8 (can spell his name...) conceded 3 and I think Nemo conceded 2/3 in the first half   
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: JF on November 09, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
A few seasons back when we had Cips, Beale, WLR and others in full flight we were winning by scoring more than the opposition. "You score one try? We'll get three."

Most of us knew back then that defence wasn't our strongest suit.

Look at who's gone and who's arrived in their place and you can't honestly say that we've traded up. It now seems that we've changed to "You score one try? We won't and we'll probably give away a penalty at the restart."

This hasn't happened accidentally. Someone was responsible for recruitment. Someone is responsible for coaching. Dai may as well have taped his post-game interview responses and keep them handy for the future. It's not going to improve accidentally.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 09, 2019, 01:28:14 PM
Which makes you wonder how recruitment works.. are agents continually bombarding NH DoR's alerting them of the fact  their player's contract is up soon.. sends them a highlights reel.. and the DoR bites?

Or do DoR's actively search players out. I'm beginning to think its the former.

We'd all like our team (I'm guessing this applies to all clubs) to find young talent, nurture and develop them but once they become stars they will move to the highest bigger (apart from one club).

That's a risk a club takes.

One of the sub clauses to the salary cap was a marquee player.. then it was increased to 2.

The thinking was to allow a high level international player to bring their experience (and glitz and glamour)  to a club but being restricted to one or 2, it wouldn't dilute the english playing pool... all for the intended good of the league and national team.

I couldn't help noticing how many Saffa's were playing for Sale last night. I believe (I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong) there were 3 brothers and the 9.. only the 10 was contracted to Sale.. the others on loan.. on loan for what reason?

To cover for the other Saffa's who aren't there?

As a wake up call for us.. Sale didn't have Faf.. Mark Wilson (another loan I think), Tom Curry, and de Jager soon to arrive...

Diamond has been very vociferous about Sarries. Again.. in my mind.. the figures don't add up..

You have Ashton.. Solomona.. I think even McGuigan was an international


Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 09, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
Just came to the forum and had the pop up advert "We'll get rid of wasps for you".  I feel sad that my first thought was "no need, they are going to die out by the winter" (no pun intended).
I can think of lots of contributory reasons, new partnerships bedding in etc. But ultimately there is a lack of maturity and composure that with a Shaun Edwards type waiting in the dressing room I doubt any one would dare to let continue.
If each player does their job properly then improvements will result,  maybe not immediately but they are good enough individuals for it to happen. At the moment it is as if players have no faith in a system,  or no system, so they go off piste and headless and we have seen too much of that in the last 18 months. They stand around in a flap waiting for a whistle that is not coming and the other team keep playing, or go on one man offside missions. As for the comedy text about the technology in the new kit making in almost impossible to drop the ball (paraphrased) well...
Whether with Dai or without the coaching needs an upgrade because all the problems are recognised but no one seems to be able to sort it.
I don't belive we have worse players than Saints, and they were a basket case 2 years back, but they made changes (and brought through young players)  and now look, a pretty good team.
Not seen last night's match yet, only had radio, flying home to watch it now. I think it will be depressing.
IMO we have enough good players to be a lot better,  but first need to stop being a shambles.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 09, 2019, 01:59:58 PM
Defence is being mentioned a lot here but although we shipped a lot of penalties last night we conceded one try away from home which came from an interception. That certainly doesn't mean the defence is perfect at all and there is a lot of scramble defence but I just felt like trying to find something positive to say!

Because we gave such a ridiculous amount of penalties away it actually stopped Sale from scoring more trys. Unfortunately I still saw a lot of holes in our defence. We should of had a couple of yellow cards, especially cruise who went straight into the side of the maul
Hang on...to be fair they didnt string anything together, the only time they made ground was due to a missed one on one tackle, I suggest you rewatch the game. Intercept aside, they produced nothing. Sale didn't win that game, we handed it to them, lets get that right.
Decision making and penalties lost us a winnable game...similar to Irish.
Im frustrated too, i'll take a loss with a performance and that wasn't a performance, but I won't try to read more into it than there is. A couple of sub par performance by players in key positions cost us. I think we really missed Gaskell last night.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: westwaleswasp on November 10, 2019, 12:58:33 AM
Thanks BG for the scrum analysis.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: welsh wasp on November 10, 2019, 12:11:05 PM
We need to be careful when we single out players for very negative comments. One person says the unnamed JTA was useless. Lo & behold, another says it was Harris who was at fault. They do have numbers on their back!
Re JTA, unlikely that he is too tall to be a prop. He survived very well in the Super League and has, I think, a couple of NZ caps.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Chunky24 on November 10, 2019, 12:43:16 PM
It's more difficult for a tall TH since the controlled engage was introduced, it negates a lot of their previous advantage during the engage and allows the LH to almost be in the position under them from the start.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: WickedWasp on November 10, 2019, 02:22:24 PM
Negatives for me were JTA at scrumtime and obviously the amount of penalties given away. The game at ruck time had descended into chaos thanks to some bizarre calls for both teams by the ref.
But I did think Sopps showed up better with some nice touches. Vailanu seems to be getting better as the weeks go on. I actually think for the most part we are showing some much better signs than last year. Defense is solid more frequently but still has the odd brain fart often after a silly turnover from maybe a spilled ball that's then spread wide. But think we defend in the tight a lot better and our set piece is more of a weapon.
Overall I just think penalties and some of the silly play shows how low on confidence or desperate the players are and forcing things. I dont think we are as worse off as last season. Be nice to have more impact from the bench but I think that might come with time if not just for some players returning from injury.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 10, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
I'm don't know if JTA is a poor scrummager but he's already said that he's planning on putting on more weight as he's realised the game is different to what he's been used to in NZ.

The offy says he's 6ft 4" and 19st 10.. I know this sounds ridiculous but I'd expect him to be heavier given his height and the position he plays.

There's probably a good reason why props aren't 6ft 4 though.

Interestingly, having checked JTA's bio, I've noticed there's no photo against Launcher's bio?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 10, 2019, 02:43:12 PM


...
Interestingly, having checked JTA's bio, I've noticed there's no photo against Launcher's bio?
Because as someone has pointed out a couple of times he is leaving?  Or maybe he was away with England when the photos were done?


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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 10, 2019, 02:51:36 PM


...
Interestingly, having checked JTA's bio, I've noticed there's no photo against Launcher's bio?
Because as someone has pointed out a couple of times he is leaving?  Or maybe he was away with England when the photos were done?


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Ah.. it must be the latter as there isn't one for Minozzi either
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 10, 2019, 02:58:08 PM
That would be my guess, but I'm sure the other interpretation is our there somewhere too!

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on November 10, 2019, 03:47:55 PM
I'm don't know if JTA is a poor scrummager but he's already said that he's planning on putting on more weight as he's realised the game is different to what he's been used to in NZ.

The offy says he's 6ft 4" and 19st 10.. I know this sounds ridiculous but I'd expect him to be heavier given his height and the position he plays.

There's probably a good reason why props aren't 6ft 4 though.

Interestingly, having checked JTA's bio, I've noticed there's no photo against Launcher's bio?

Sheridan was 6'4", admittedly LH not TH, but still very tall for a prop and he was pretty good. :D
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rossm on November 10, 2019, 03:55:52 PM
I'm don't know if JTA is a poor scrummager but he's already said that he's planning on putting on more weight as he's realised the game is different to what he's been used to in NZ.

The offy says he's 6ft 4" and 19st 10.. I know this sounds ridiculous but I'd expect him to be heavier given his height and the position he plays.

There's probably a good reason why props aren't 6ft 4 though.

Interestingly, having checked JTA's bio, I've noticed there's no photo against Launcher's bio?

Sheridan was 6'4", admittedly LH not TH, but still very tall for a prop and he was pretty good. :D

Actually, as an ex front row, I thought Sheridan was a paper tiger and flattered to deceive. Never thought anything of him.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 10, 2019, 04:10:18 PM
I was going to mention Andrew Sheridan (I'll never forget his destruction of the Oz frontrow) but as you say he was a loosehead.. the only other prop I can think of is Carl Hayman.. but back then, as someone else has pointed out, you could smash into your opposition and keep pushing to get momentum and then the ball was put in..

Note the commentary at 2 mins 45.. he mentions what the 2 opposites props are trying to do and how Sheridans height effects things. The problem for the Ozzie props was that Sheridan was a freak of nature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tvsYSdEHQc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tvsYSdEHQc)




Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: AndyL on November 10, 2019, 10:14:46 PM
Hi been lurking a while, used to post on the DW site but here seems more chilled out. After watching the game and now hearing of how Nathan Hughes performed today how many others feel we are missing a big ball carrier to suck up defenders and give us some go forward.

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Neils on November 10, 2019, 11:08:28 PM
Is that a wind up?
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: AndyL on November 11, 2019, 07:03:11 AM
No that wasnt a wind it was an honest observation. If that is how new posters are being treated around here I cant see much difference between the two sites I will continue to lurk and not bother posting. Bye

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on November 11, 2019, 07:32:14 AM
No that wasnt a wind it was an honest observation. If that is how new posters are being treated around here I cant see much difference between the two sites I will continue to lurk and not bother posting. Bye

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On behalf of the rest of the forum I apologise for that.

Nathan is doing extremely well at Bris, partly I suspect due to the lack of mixed messages coming from club and country, and partly because he has the added security of being in a massive wage regardless of performance. The pressure is off.

Bear in mind though that when he was was a fresh signing he was fairly new to the whole game and performed much like our new 8 is doing now.

Lots of promise, little noise about what else is going on on the field.  I suspect as he gets to know the way we play he'll start being a lot more effective. As it is he is making yards and getting over the gainline. If more people did that we'd be a lot better off.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Neils on November 11, 2019, 07:59:10 AM
No that wasnt a wind it was an honest observation. If that is how new posters are being treated around here I cant see much difference between the two sites I will continue to lurk and not bother posting. Bye

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OK perhaps the response was a bit short but my point was if you are a lurker (and many of us have been to start with) you will have read the comments about Hughes over many many months. Add that together with the quite substantial praise for our new No 8 Vailanu who is very like Hughes at the beginning and it did look as if a first time poster was on a stirring mission - as happens all the time on DW. Apologies from me if it was well meant.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: AndyL on November 11, 2019, 08:04:17 AM
That's fine. I understand everyone is in guard at present. It's good we have Vilanu but we cant rely on just him to give us some go forward. Or we will end up going backwards or sideways. Like on Fri and conceive penalties. I know the other option is AJ but he seems to fallen out of favour. Which raise the question of who else. Because we tried multiple times to go around the corner and we were knocked back.

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Neils on November 11, 2019, 08:12:12 AM
Vailanu is progressing as he gets to know those around him but he seems to be impacting on the two flankers. We do have Willis x 2 to get back to full speed plus Alex Reider who is a very good No 8. Also YY to come back which will require a shuffle around of players. Just have to get the right mix quickly.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 11, 2019, 08:28:21 AM
Agree with neils getting the mix right is very important.

Iím struggling with it and I bet if we asked people on here who to play in the back row we would have at least half a dozen choices.

For me Thomas Youngs has to play at 7, then I really have no idea. I would like to see Willis at 6 and the new guy at 8. See how that goes. I would get Reider on the bench coming on after 55/60 mins. Itís a difficult one and does need looking at.

One thing is for sure it needs to dominate as soon as possible
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 11, 2019, 09:26:26 AM
I haven't seen Hughes play yet this season but from reports from other posters it appears he's found the form he had with us before he was elevated to the England squad, afterwhich, he became a bit one dimensional.

I thought his last season with us was average at best (when he played/available.. which was infrequently). Yes he smashes into people but even if he bumped the first tackler off, he would lose momentum and then be stopped by the 2nd tackler. If he did manage to retain the ball (which wasn't always) it would be slow ball coming back in the ruck or maul.

I've got no problem with him leaving for Bristol and now performing well again. He saw out his contract (I won't go any further about honouring contracts) and Bristol offered more money than Dai was willing/able to pay (again - not going there.. Dai is keeping to a budget - hopefully).

Our new 8 has fitted in brilliantly and seems eager to impress. He did seem to get used a lot in the midfield for carrying purposes so I hope some of the other players help with the load.

In terms of the back row balance. The team plays a lot better with either J Willis or YY in the mix. I hope YY comes back soon and stays injury free. It seems like ages since he last had a good run of games
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 11, 2019, 09:38:52 AM
For me Thomas Youngs will help with the ball carrying, as well as being great at the breakdown he is superb at carrying.

The problem is itís hard not to pick Shields or Carr
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Brandnewtorugby on November 11, 2019, 11:07:46 AM
Alex, Joe and Ash always go forward, I agree we have missed some of that. My feeling is we are not supporting breaks when they happen though. A week ago Vailanu was on his tod, at the weekend he had just Gopperth who in turn then ended up on his tod. It is the close support of breaks that I feel we have been missing most.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 11, 2019, 11:19:01 AM
We have go forward but seemingly little idea what to do then.
The teams that are performing well seem to be working on automatic, almost like muscle-memory, in that as a player goes forward they right people are just in place and the rest of the team are in the correct positions. Too often we look like it is a surprise that someone ran forward with the ball, or that it popped out of a ruck  and is on the floor, with the consequence that whilst the team meeting to decide what to do next is going on, the ball has been turned over.
I am sure that is something that will be ironed out with time together and stability, but that could be the black and gold specs I am looking through, as we were failing in the same way last season too.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 11, 2019, 11:44:16 AM
I'm trying to balance my view and its hard to be objective about a team I've identified with since before the first RWC!

Pre season is where organisation is hard wired. You do ( I believe) need to make a choice of how a team is going to play (in general and at set piece etc) as that foundation is what you can then play "off"

What seemed to happen too often was that a promising piece of play (from the LI game on) managed to come to an end as there appeared to be a lack of understanding what the options were and what was going to happen.

It does start to look that we relied a little too much off the star dust players that alongside a more than workable pack allowed a less structured game. That said, over the two seasons he was back, it does seem Danny did provide "the" backs plan, and without that, without Jimmy for too long and with perhaps less than optimal organisational/coaching certainty, we've looked what we are, a team of individuals (too often)

Now, I really am not qualified to be certain. We've looked great in patches - we looked like we'd go on to win the LI game, the Sale game and did win the Bath game. We were never in the Glaws game really - but that happens. Still confused as to what the issue is.

I am moving towards change needed and not at player level. We have more than a decent squad.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 11, 2019, 12:26:00 PM
IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 11, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.

Me too on the squad. Yes, new people, but....really long pre season. Quality players we had last year still in key positions so not so new.

I looked at what happened to Saints when Mallinder went. And why. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42324266

If you are going to make a big change - I'd guess pre xmas......

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 11, 2019, 01:03:02 PM
Mind you, I cited Saints and an example of change and they promptly lost, so I should perhaps change my name to Jonah and start "bigging" up the SalarySins.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: DGP Wasp on November 11, 2019, 01:14:14 PM
The turnover of players seems to have become a perennial problem (excuse).  Why are we unable to keep a core of a squad together?  I know we can point to specific reasons as to why certain players have gone that may be outside of the control of Dai, Derek or anyone else, whether that be personal circumstances, England selection, lack of opportunity or just cold hard cash and the need to stay within the cap (Wade, Cips, Hask, Simpson, Hughes, Daly...), coupled with high profile, high quality SH players on short term deals (Le Roux, Beale, Smith, Piutau).  The fact remains that this is a worrying trend, and I think the number one reason that we have become un-competitive in recent seasons.

There are a lot of other issues at play - ongoing uncertainty regarding the training ground; players who relocated failing to settle;  failure to qualify for Champions' Cup; coaching; club finances - that may or may not factor in a player's decision to leave the club.  I'm not saying all of the  above have necessarily contributed to the higher player turnover, but if you're an employee in an organisation where just 2 or 3 of these things give cause for concern then you are most likely more open to approaches from other prospective employers.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 11, 2019, 01:23:43 PM
IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.

Me too on the squad. Yes, new people, but....really long pre season. Quality players we had last year still in key positions so not so new.

I looked at what happened to Saints when Mallinder went. And why. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42324266

If you are going to make a big change - I'd guess pre xmas......

I'm guessing that makes sense as it allows the new DoR to make his own choices in the transfer market in Jan - March.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 11, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Mind you, I cited Saints and an example of change and they promptly lost, so I should perhaps change my name to Jonah and start "bigging" up the SalarySins.

:-)

That said, there are parallels, long term DoR, fall off in form/league position rather rapidly, need to make a decision to change/not change
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 11, 2019, 01:27:23 PM
IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.

Me too on the squad. Yes, new people, but....really long pre season. Quality players we had last year still in key positions so not so new.

I looked at what happened to Saints when Mallinder went. And why. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42324266

If you are going to make a big change - I'd guess pre xmas......

I'm guessing that makes sense as it allows the new DoR to make his own choices in the transfer market in Jan - March.

Its an option. Its not the only one, but it did strike me that the Saints experience and reaction was at least an option. Especially in terms of when and why.

The BBC article makes interesting reading
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 11, 2019, 01:33:28 PM
There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: NellyWellyWaspy on November 11, 2019, 01:54:44 PM
There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.

Interesting thought. I wonder who that might be in recent years? Have we had an excellent coach leave us? I think not. So, maybe a player. I will rule out Cips, as he is too variable to have been that person. Let's say that the Beale year was the end of the timeframe (2015-2016?). Anybody who stayed on (or switched off) after that is counted out. Who does that leave? Wade?

Both Wade (from 2016/17) and Daly (from 2017/18) lost interest, as far as I could see. And we lost Jimmy from the field. Their vibrant personalities, their teamwork and their intelligence. Jimmy is back, at last, but on his own. We have not replaced Wade or Daly, in the personality front.

Much as I like Joe's work rate, the clear loss in the pack was the Archbishop of Banterbury. Again, we haven't replaced his personality. We have lost the heart and soul of the team. It will come back, but it will take time for others to step up. I can see Odogwu stepping up, but I can't see that in the other backs we are featuring. Maybe Minozzi. I don't see it in the forwards either. Maybe Vailanu will be.

Time. Not this year though. This is not something you buy in, but it IS something you can lose.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 11, 2019, 02:19:18 PM
The Arch bishop was permanently injured and spent much of his injury time elsewhere, I think his contribution is overplayed.
Daly's personality I question, i'm not sure he much of a squad magnet, certainly towards the end I think he took away more than he added. Wade was always singular, in his own vibe.
I agree we need a leader, we don't have any. Launch is a leader in his workrate but not a leader of men...same maybe for shields.
Gopps is a leader but when he's not there, what next. Dan and YY as captains is a massive own goal for me.
I think in a season or so that person is J Wilis...but thats further out than i'd like.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 11, 2019, 02:34:14 PM
There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.

Well that describes Mallinder at Saints. It is a cliche, but it certainly has seemed pertinent in business in my experience. And the problem is identifying the point when and crucially, if, that tipping point occurs and also for whom.

The problem is that Wasps are showing a drop off in form and league position from beginning of last season (least on the surface)

So what is causing that problem? Its unlikely to be one thing, but a decent squad, which last season had the excuse of injuries, has carried on onto this season, looking too often (to me) like they are uncertain about what they are going to do. Its not a lack of effort, its not a lack of talent, but it does appear to be a problem in making a squad of good individuals play like a team.

So, its then an issue of looking at the potential reasons from the coaching set up, the communication from coach to team, the leadership, the period the coaching team has been in place etc etc

I'm not qualified to know. But...just carrying on doing the same thing expecting a different outcome is where failure occurs more often than not.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Mellie on November 11, 2019, 02:50:01 PM
I feel that as a team we lack rugby intelligence. Really top players have it in spades which is why they can instinctively play what's in front of them. A few of them together, like we have had, can produce the results and make less intuitive players look better because they just have to concentrate on doing what they can do best. Bassett is an example of that.

I would hope that the coaches have the rugby intelligence though. The remedy would be to coach lots of scenarios so less intuitive players can spot and react to situations they have practiced much quicker.

I have noticed players switch off sometimes when not directly involved in a play and are consequently slow to adapt if it doesn't go to plan. We need to up our intensity.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 11, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
The difference between a side in 4th and 11th https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294875&league=267979

Very little it seems. Penalties in the wrong area's for sure. Given the amount of breaks vs meters made, startling contrast in almost dble meters on same breaks. Not sure what this tells us other than we need to be more streetwise, smarter and control where we play.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Shugs on November 11, 2019, 09:10:56 PM
I agree Hymoneptera. We are dealing with small margins. We simply have too many good players to be far away. For me we're so desperate to win this year that we're almost snatching at things. That's frustrating but not nearly as worrying as the ambivalence and lack of interest of last year. In attack I've heard several times already "that's like the Wasps of two years ago". I think we just need to improve the discipline, concentrate on the basics and the talent we have will come through.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: SilverShire on November 11, 2019, 09:55:15 PM
I agree with you as well, controlling the breakdown has to be one of the focuses this week
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: backdoc on November 11, 2019, 10:48:15 PM
Jack Willis now IMO.

LOL was captain at what age - 21?

Jack Willis looked like a captain from his very first game.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Heathen on November 12, 2019, 07:35:51 AM
Jack would be my choice as well. He epitomises many of the values exhibited by LBND.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Vespula Vulgaris on November 12, 2019, 08:05:21 AM
I'd be very happy with Jack as Captain.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 12, 2019, 10:08:53 AM
I agree I donít think itís big  margins to get into the top 6, I feel our squad depth is not good enough for top 4, as I said before we are about 4 players short for that. But top 6 for me is a mental issue rather than quality, this is a coaching problem.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 12, 2019, 10:18:36 AM
I would look at jack for captain as well, you look at his commitment and it isnít matched by many players, also or Friday I saw him challenging the ref on a couple of occasions.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 12, 2019, 10:21:33 AM
I'd be very happy with Jack as Captain.

He would get my vote (not that I have a vote) but the perennial problem is that one player isn't going to be available all the time.

By his actions alone though, he does seem to have a rallying effect on the rest of the players. If the 9 and 10 aren't captains they should be offering tactical advice to the captain to allow him to make a decision. As talented as Dobby and Sopps are, I don't think they are doing this.

It may be as a result of who both played with previously (Cips and did Sopps play with Smith?) meant that they could leave the game managment element to someone else.

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Westy68 on November 12, 2019, 11:21:51 AM
Also Gaskell was Sales captain at the age of only 20, making him the youngest captain, so I read
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Brandnewtorugby on November 12, 2019, 01:35:05 PM
JB, the Sale supporter on Eggchaser's, has never sounded like a big fan of Wasps and has been saying for a while that we are in trouble and not coached well. This week, after watching the game, he has changed his tune a little and doesn't seem to think we are in as much trouble as he thought. Thought it interesting how different the view was to the prevailing view of supporters. After seeing the stats, perhaps we have all been a little glass half empty, or have unrealistic expectations. I am sure there will be lots of analysis of the penalties, I am going to cling onto the hope that some quick fixes will be possible.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Tervueren on November 12, 2019, 01:44:00 PM
Watching it afterwards without any expectation and knowing the result was a lot less painful than listening to it live on the radio, it was no-where near as bad a performance as it felt at the time. That is also true of the LI match and parts of the Bath game that seemed terrible when watching live.

Not to be complacent, if we give away points like that all season then we could be in big trouble, but whilst not really expecting top 4 (though have the final ticket ready just in case) I don't think it will take a lot to iron out the problems.

It could be a case of not having to outrun the bear, just the person next to you, we need to improve more than Leicester and a few others. (Don't fancy every year feeling like this though)

Glass is half-full until the next match? (this is the "Glee Club" after all)
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 12, 2019, 01:53:12 PM
If I recall, Ben Kay was saying after the game that there was one problem that would have massively reduced the penalty count and that was simply the ball acrriers getting over the gain line.  He highlighted that not getting go forward resulted in getting 'go sideways' which meant that supporting players couldn't support the ball carrier as well or clear out as they were approaching at totally the wrong angle.  This led to turnovers, penalties and slow ball.

Now I was just a full back in my day, and an incredibly poor one at that, so I have no idea if he is right, but the engineer in me can see the logic of his argument.  How you would go about addressing that, I have no idea but hopefully the coaching set up noticed the same (or were listening) and have some plans.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Hymenoptera on November 12, 2019, 02:37:59 PM
JB, the Sale supporter on Eggchaser's, has never sounded like a big fan of Wasps and has been saying for a while that we are in trouble and not coached well. This week, after watching the game, he has changed his tune a little and doesn't seem to think we are in as much trouble as he thought. Thought it interesting how different the view was to the prevailing view of supporters. After seeing the stats, perhaps we have all been a little glass half empty, or have unrealistic expectations. I am sure there will be lots of analysis of the penalties, I am going to cling onto the hope that some quick fixes will be possible.
But his opinion on Wasps, or anything really, can't be taken seriously as he has been saying we are in trouble for about 5 seasons, tainted that Wasps took a few Sale players. His change of opinion seems to be less about Wasps standing and more about moving his disdain towards Tigers. Anything this man utters should be ignored.

Back to the captain debate, Willis too early for me. He is still developing and needs a full season under his belt with no distraction. Its too big a jump IMO. I'd be happy for him to remain a pitch leader for now...
Which in no way helps with our situation
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: BG on November 12, 2019, 02:48:38 PM
Running at a slight angle away from the scrum or ruck or maul allows the defence to drift and use the 16th defender...

Ideally you need someone running a straight or cut back line to stop the defenders drift.. whether that person gets the ball or not doesn't matter.. but it holds the defence up for a split second... it places a seed of doubt .. is this person cutting back getting the ball or not

I'm really surprised that Gleeson hasn't brought this in being from RL... but RL doesn't have to worry about ball retention if a player becomes isolated

Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 12, 2019, 02:56:33 PM
If I understood Kay correctly, he was saying that by being pushed sideways / backwards 2m in every collision instead of making 2m over the gainline meant that players supporting had to continually change their lines, risking coming in at the side or delaying their engagement with the ruck allowing Sale to get a turnover.
I guess it probably also meant players were also more likely to drift as they tried to get as much of an advantage in the collision as they could(?). 

Either way, I think there is something in this being one of the routes of our problems. It would be interesting how many of the penalties were when we had the ball, and how many turnovers were affected at the ruck.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 12, 2019, 03:07:37 PM
re the penalities - many were for basic offside. I don't think we were worse than Sale, but my personal, tinfoil hat, position is that dressed in bright orange makes it easier to give.....But still you need to adapt

At the breakdown, the ref had a poor game. Seemingly not recently familiar with Laws 14 and 15. That said, you still need to adapt to the ref. We didn't do that very well

If reffed to the Law, it would make for a better game - but that's for another day.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: welsh wasp on November 12, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
Only seen games on TV this season, but our new No.8 seems to generally move in a forward direction.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rossm on November 12, 2019, 04:42:24 PM
re the penalities - many were for basic offside. I don't think we were worse than Sale, but my personal, tinfoil hat, position is that dressed in bright orange makes it easier to give.....But still you need to adapt

At the breakdown, the ref had a poor game. Seemingly not recently familiar with Laws 14 and 15. That said, you still need to adapt to the ref. We didn't do that very well

If reffed to the Law, it would make for a better game - but that's for another day.

Indeed. Our defensive line was falling foul of the ref by (allegedly) being off side a lot. My impression was that Foley was being particularly pernickety or his assistants were. However I was watching on screen and often can only see the detail.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 12, 2019, 04:44:37 PM
re the penalities - many were for basic offside. I don't think we were worse than Sale, but my personal, tinfoil hat, position is that dressed in bright orange makes it easier to give.....But still you need to adapt

At the breakdown, the ref had a poor game. Seemingly not recently familiar with Laws 14 and 15. That said, you still need to adapt to the ref. We didn't do that very well

If reffed to the Law, it would make for a better game - but that's for another day.
Good point, I recall a couple of penalties when Healy was convinced they should have gone or way for the Sale player not supporting his own weight.

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: mike909 on November 12, 2019, 06:30:49 PM
Its been a bugbear for me (Laws 14 and 15) as when reffed well (NZ Provincial games an excellent example) once ruck is called, you cannot use your hands, supporting your weight or not - unless you were a) first to the tackled player and b) on your feet and c) clearly on the ball. Its education - well it was for me - to read the Laws and the explanations

But our ref allowed hands in the ruck, off feet players allowed to compete for the ball and hands in the ruck. It was a mess and hard to adapt to.

As for offside, there was (from the TV shots) no obvious issue but we kept on being called - hence my "tinfoil" comment!
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: AndyL on November 12, 2019, 06:45:49 PM
Along side those the real one for me is players going off their feet. Not just not supporting their body weight but when cleaning out totally flying in or even worse the judo roll. It's a touchy subject for me as I got my back injured playing full back when a forward flew in off his feet as I was jackaling for the ball. We saw an example of that on Fri and I'm amazed more players aren't hurt in the rucks because of it.

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Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: CurtisJHunter on November 12, 2019, 07:26:00 PM
Goodey, Lol and Austin made a point on BT Sport on Sunday that if you were to put together and compare all of the 12 teams in the aviva prem then they would all be very similar with not much to pick between them.

They mentioned this has come into the league in the last 2 seasons but what has really changed is the quality of coaches in the prem teams.

Most teams are all very similar but the quality of coaches has rapidly
Improved and that the teams at the bottom of the league are the ones with the weakest coaching set up

Thought this was very interesting with us and Tigers bottom.
Title: Re: Sale Game Thread
Post by: Rifleman Harris on November 12, 2019, 07:39:42 PM


Goodey, Lol and Austin made a point on BT Sport on Sunday that if you were to put together and compare all of the 12 teams in the aviva prem then they would all be very similar with not much to pick between them....except one which is packed with internationals.

I fixed that for you!

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