Could we be in a similar place?

[Fats]

From today's Times.

Posted for discussion

Leicester Tigers and Bath declines will continue without hired help
owen slot, chief rugby correspondent


When Harry Thacker scored for Bristol Bears, with five minutes to go at Welford Road, and consigned Leicester Tigers to their seemingly weekly dose of crushing indignity, you wondered: what if he had never left? No, I don’t mean Thacker — even though he has scored three tries in two games against his old side and applied all that salt to their copious wounds. No, I mean what if Richard Cockerill had never left?

What if Leicester had stuck by Cockerill a while longer? What if they hadn’t given him the opportunity to rescue Toulon’s season and get them to the 2017 Top 14 final? And then what if he hadn’t got the opportunity to carry on being successful at Edinburgh and got them this season to a first Heineken Cup quarter-final since 2012?

Instead of twisting, what if Leicester had stuck? What if they hadn’t given Aaron Mauger the main job instead of Cockerill? And then Matt O’Connor instead of Mauger, when that didn’t work? And then Geordan Murphy instead of O’Connor, when that didn’t work either?

They are on their fourth regime in three seasons and will have spent Lord knows how much in redundancies. My guess — and it’s not a very brave one — is that if Cockerill had never left, Leicester would be better off and somewhere higher than 11th in the Gallagher Premiership with relegation still a mathematical possibility.

When, though, is it right to sack the coach? It is dead easy to make chin-stroking assumptions about what-ifs and what-might-have-beens with Cockerill and the value of loyalty, yet the fact is that the teams that have risen the farthest up the Premiership this season are those who took the exact same decision as Leicester: to sack and start again.


Third, fourth and fifth in the Premiership are teams that recently changed their head coach or director of rugby. In terms of regime change, Gloucester are a season ahead of Harlequins and Northampton Saints, which may explain why they are safely in third rather scrapping for fourth.

Johan Ackermann has clearly been a success at Gloucester; likewise Chris Boyd at Northampton and so too Paul Gustard at Harlequins. And all three have only just got going. Expect more and better from them next season, especially from Gustard and Boyd who, by and large, inherited a squad for season one and have had a year tinkering with it before they go into season two.

You can no longer, now, watch a Leicester game without your commentators informing you that Leicester are better than this and should be doing better than this and will soon work their way out of the present mess. However, with Gloucester, Saints and Harlequins on an upward trajectory, it is actually more likely that these three will pull away even more next season and leave Leicester even farther in their wake.

Last season, when there was an unusually high turnover of Premiership directors of rugby and head coaches, rugby traditionalists squealed that this new rugby culture was horrid and far too much like football. This season, that turnover doesn’t look such a bad thing after all.

Traditionally, rugby — indeed, most sports — agree that loyalty and continuity are to be prized. This season the evidence does not bear that out. Here is the problem that Leicester — and, indeed, Bath — face. At one time, these were the two giants of the English club game. In their different ways, though, they have both spent too many seasons testing and rejecting too many different coaching and management groups. Leicester have twisted and burned so many times that it is the board itself which looks culpable. Bath’s turnover has been slower, yet barely more effective.

Yet just when Gloucester, Saints and Harlequins have proven the benefits of regime change, Bath and Leicester are both looking at a more traditional option: continuity, loyalty, promoting from within, all the stuff they forgot with Cockerill.

Murphy is 41 and has been appointed head coach of the Tigers; Stuart Hooper is only 37 and is to be next season’s director of rugby at Bath. Both are comparatively fresh to the world of coaching and management; Murphy stopped playing six years ago, Hooper only three.

Their clubs have identified them as the smart, new leaders of the new age, an assessment based on their years together, their understanding of these personalities and the way they interact around their clubs. Yet, however much you admire the faith being placed in them, the fact remains that both clubs are making an educated gamble because Murphy and Hooper are being promoted into jobs that they have not done before.

Murphy has now been in this job for the best part of a season and no one can pretend that it is working. Success may yet lie ahead for Murphy and Hooper in these roles, though surely only if the right support and infrastructure is put in place around them. Murphy needs another senior coach alongside him. Tigers were hoping that would be Shaun Edwards, it may now be Mike Ford. It is vital that they get it right.

It would appear even less likely that Bath will. After Todd Blackadder announced his departure two weeks ago, Bath confirmed that Hooper was to be promoted to fill his shoes a year earlier than expected. That is one thing, it is quite another that he appears set to take over without anyone in the role of head coach.

Bath have not renewed the contracts of Toby Booth and Darren Edwards, two of their coaches for next season. Neal Hatley, the England scrum coach, is set to join the coaching staff but not until after the World Cup in November. What the coaching team desperately lacks is a senior experienced figure to lead it. The club insist that they will be fine without one. We shall see. Leicester and Bath have become serial underperformers; they are both desperately trying to stick a heel in to stop the slide but they could also slide even farther. They have placed commendable faith in their young leaders; they now need to make appointments around them too. That is the management lesson of this season.

Breezy Worcester proved me wrong
Wrong, wrong and wrong again. At the start of this season, I was convinced that Worcester Warriors would be relegated, halfway through I felt the same and even five weeks ago, I hadn’t changed my mind.

I should have paid attention to the money. Newcastle Falcons reduced their wage bill this season by nearly £1 million; their total spend on players was the lowest in the league, considerably lower than Worcester’s. After their success in finishing fourth last year, it seems Newcastle thought they could make cuts and not get found out.

I still don’t want to pay too much attention to the money, though, because it is not as if Worcester have bought their way out of trouble. In their past four games, their three wins were breezy, confident displays; they looked nothing like a team trying to dig their way out of trouble.

Their next challenge is to do it again. They are such victims of their own success that Josh Adams, Bryce Heem and Jack Singleton are on the way out this summer, all rough diamonds polished at Sixways and now cherry-picked by other ambitious clubs. Warriors have not gone out shopping for players of similar reputation; they will go back to the mine and look for the talent again.

[Rossm]

I am sorry but I don't quite understand the point Slot is trying to make. On the one hand he is suggesting that regime change works, on the other he says that it doesn't. It seems to me that he is picking and choosing the evidence to validate his points. Personally, I do not much like a culture of hiring and firing. I consider it a scattergun approach. Sometimes you hit your target and sometimes you don't.
However, I do not deny that we need an injection of new blood into our coaching setup. Ever since Danny Wilson's untimely defection, we have been at least one coach light. I am confident that we will get this right. Panicking and parachuting someone (anyone) in mid-season is not the answer.

[BG]

I presume you mean, are we in a similar place to the headline of

"Leicester Tigers and Bath declines will continue without hired help"

and not the whole article which doesn't even mention Wasps?

Its hard to say. Leicester have had more coaches recently than National Express and look how things have turned out. Bath have had coaches arrive and leave having had enough time to build and shape their own style.

One thing in common between them is they prefer to promote from within for the rest of their coaching team. tiggers have Boris and Allen, both previous players (I believe Pat Howard has been there this week taking a look, another former coach I think). Bath do the same. Quins do the same, Kingston was promoted, Easter was, along with Evans and things have improved with Easter and Kingston leaving and Gustard from a different environment coming in.

I'm not a fan of players being automatically promoted to the same club's coaching staff. There's too much familiarity with current players and methods. How are things going to change when you have the same cogs in the engine.

Which is why (and I'm sure I'll be lambasted for this), I don't think Gopps should be taken on as a fulltime coach at Wasps. He should go to other clubs, even leagues to learn different perspectives and methods.

A few yrs ago Leinster were playing very average rugby. A lot of their players have said the major difference has been Lancaster arriving.

IF Wasps' management are looking to shake up their coaching staff then they should look further afield, perhaps change the structure to match that of Glaws. Keep Dai there in a similar role to Humphries but then ship another coach in who's then in charge of all rugby matters.

[Rossm]

Which is why (and I'm sure I'll be lambasted for this), I don't think Gopps should be taken on as a fulltime coach at Wasps. He should go to other clubs, even leagues to learn different perspectives and methods.

To some extent, I agree with you but I think there could be a place for Gopps to be a player/coach for a season or two. Suits some people and clubs though not others. He has after all been coaching elsewhere already.

A few yrs ago Leinster were playing very average rugby. A lot of their players have said the major difference has been Lancaster arriving.

To be quite frank, if you had told me that was going to happen, I would have laughed out loud.

[Rory87]

To some extent, I agree with you but I think there could be a place for Gopps to be a player/coach for a season or two. Suits some people and clubs though not others. He has after all been coaching elsewhere already.

Ross this isn't personal attack but rather a genuine question so please take it as such (this isn't DW after all!).... Are there examples at this level where player Coaches work? I know it's common practice in the lower leagues and often works well. However, at this level I question whether a player coach role would suit. I don't work in the environment Prem Clubs do so can't give an informed view point (which others on here might, yourself included Ross), but wonder how that dynamic would work.

I think Gopps would make a good coach and had been thinking Wasps would potentially offer him that sort of role in the near future. However, reading BG's comments I actually think he makes a good point that perhaps he needs some time away to experience differing approaches and techniques. The only counter I can think to that is that Gopps hasn't been a Wasp his entire carreer. He's played Super Rugby, Falcons, Leinster... granted not recently and coaching techniques and approaches evelove in time but guessing he's picked up a few things from those environments.

I'd take Cips as a backs/attack coach in a heartbeat. But think I agree with BG on the whole and think we need to look further afield... perhaps international coaches at the RWC?

[mike909]

I think its hard to provide data on such a subject - coaching and continuity - as opposed to information. In a sense, any appointment is going to fall into the - "it worked" or "didn't work" category and there may not be a reason. You can see his in football - my team (been a supporter since the late 60's) Fulham got to the final of the Europa Cup, beating Juve 4-0 along the way with a coach who was experienced but just happened to be in the right place at the right time (for Fulham) and not really for England!

Rugby coaching is like most sports coaching, about hard work and luck combined with the success or otherwise of personal relationships (like management I suppose) Good coaches will tend to have more successes, Geech, Gatland for example, but there are no guarantees. You can see this with Eddie J (I am no fan...) who has a checkered career but was in the right place with Japan at the right time to be seen as some sort of genius rather than more of a short term fixer (ironically with SA..)

So Lancaster's record with England including a decent tour of NZ, beating the ABs at Twickenham and only losing one game in any 6Ns does look like that of a good coach - but one who didn't have the experience to deal with RWC 15 and all that "crap" with RL players etc. It was no surprise that he carried on doing well with Leinster

Where does that leave us? Well, I think Jimmy is as likely to be an asset to Wasps on the coaching side, but not at the top too soon. An Ackermann style addition would be good, its certainly looking like a long term position for Glaws and I'd hope we'd look to the right coach rather than the available coach.

I don't think we can just "carry on" and even Sir Alex refreshed his coaching team and did less hands on as time went by - recognising coaching can never be a one person show. He had at least 7 assistants with varying responsibilities. I do think we need some coaching support - as part of a longer term plan, more than we do players to some extent.

[Rossm]

Rory, in all honesty, I can't bring to mind player/coaches in rugby successful or otherwise. However that is not to say that there is no place for one. As Mike says, being in the right place at the right time is very important. I believe Gopps would be a great asset if we used him as a player/coach, being involved with attack or defence or whatever. He would have an entirely different perspective on things and I believe his input could very valuable.

[Fats]

You can see his in football - my team (been a supporter since the late 60's) Fulham got to the final of the Europa Cup, beating Juve 4-0 along the way with a coach who was experienced but just happened to be in the right place at the right time (for Fulham) and not really for England!

Interesting.  There are quite a few Wasps supporters I know who are Fulham supporters as well.  I started in the late 50's with Johnny Haynes, Graham Leggat, George Cohen and of course Jimmy Hill!!

[mike909]

You can see his in football - my team (been a supporter since the late 60's) Fulham got to the final of the Europa Cup, beating Juve 4-0 along the way with a coach who was experienced but just happened to be in the right place at the right time (for Fulham) and not really for England!

Interesting.  There are quite a few Wasps supporters I know who are Fulham supporters as well.  I started in the late 50's with Johnny Haynes, Graham Leggat, George Cohen and of course Jimmy Hill!!

I was taken by my parents when I was little, first time around 68, and saw George Best and Moore and Marsh and others in the 70's, My mum was born in Fulham and pre war went in through the "Boys" entrance to stand with her dad on the southern terrace as was.

I was in the crowd for that goal of the season too! My mum managed to get a Cup Final ticket too, which was nice, apart from the result!