England Training Squad

[Shugs]

For me the lineage to grandparents rule has more credence to it than the qualified by dint of time spent in residence. That rule seems particularly odd to me and has its basis in a less credible fact than the grandparent scenario.

[welsh wasp]

Has Nathan H been dropped altogether or does he have an injury.

Re something else on this mixed thread. I broke an ankle in October, plaster for a couple of weeks, then protective boot, told the registrar that I had a pain in my calf, he said the boot was probably too tight. Saw my physio 5 days later, he thought I had a DVD - which was confirmed when I went to A&E. Ended up with anti-coagulant tablets for 3 months with no requirement for a return visit to hospital.

[Raggs]

For me the lineage to grandparents rule has more credence to it than the qualified by dint of time spent in residence. That rule seems particularly odd to me and has its basis in a less credible fact than the grandparent scenario.

So you're saying someone who's lived in a country since they were 6 months old has a less credible claim to wear that nations jersey than someone who's never lived somewhere, but happens to have a grandparent who was born there (and left when they were 6 months old)?

You can flip the scenario for grandparents too, accidents of birth on borders for England Wales and Scotland and the nearest hospital etc.

[InBetweenWasp]

For me the lineage to grandparents rule has more credence to it than the qualified by dint of time spent in residence. That rule seems particularly odd to me and has its basis in a less credible fact than the grandparent scenario.

So you're saying someone who's lived in a country since they were 6 months old has a less credible claim to wear that nations jersey than someone who's never lived somewhere, but happens to have a grandparent who was born there (and left when they were 6 months old)?

You can flip the scenario for grandparents too, accidents of birth on borders for England Wales and Scotland and the nearest hospital etc.

I suspect Raggs, that Shugs meant more like the scenario whereby a player qualifies via minimal residency (i.e. 3-5 years or whatever it is).  Hughes is a pretty good example of that, brought up in Fiji and then New Zealand before coming over to play professional rugby then qualifies for England via residency.  Slightly different to the Vunipola’s and Faletau who all grew up in the UK.

[baldpaul101]

I'm not convinced Hughes has been dropped. From his Instagram he's been in Fiji & Holland, where his wife is from, so I suspect he's either been granted an extra holiday or he has some personal business to sort out.

But as has been said before, until the actual WC squad is announced, we won't know who's in it for sure.

[BG]

Surely you'd have to take a 2nd specialist no 8 as the rest of the potential backrow have very little experience in that position (Or is EJ thinknig of playing Cips at no 8?  ). If Hughes has fallen out of favour then who would be the other option.  Symmonds? Hughes does have the benefit of being able to muddle through in the 2nd row as well.

[Raggs]

Dombrandt is an 8.

[BG]

And I bet Dombrandt can fill in at 6 as well.

Doesn't the EPS get announced twice a year and EJ can only pick players from the 50 EPS list and then is the WC 31 players or did I read it was 37?

It must be around this time of year that the EPS is announced .. the other time being late Dec I think.

I assume the clubs will want that information as well sooner rather than later to help them work out Salary Cap calculations

[Marlow Nick]

I'd prefer to make EQP qualifying years taper to reflect where the player learnt to play. If you learnt your rugby (13-18) in a country then to my mind you have a much stronger claim than if you moved as a 21 year old professional and simply waited 3 years until you're 24.

So how about you must wait 8 years to qualify but every year under 20 counts double.

Move at 14 and you qualify by age 18 (4 years doubled)
Move at 18 and you qualify by age 23 (3 years doubled plus 2 years)
Move at 20 and you qualify by age 28
Move at 25 and you don't qualify until you're 33 which is the tail end of your career

[baldpaul101]

Or is EJ thinknig of playing Cips at no 8? 

Don't forget Daly has played 8 at international level..... 

[Raggs]

I'd prefer to make EQP qualifying years taper to reflect where the player learnt to play. If you learnt your rugby (13-18) in a country then to my mind you have a much stronger claim than if you moved as a 21 year old professional and simply waited 3 years until you're 24.

So how about you must wait 8 years to qualify but every year under 20 counts double.

Move at 14 and you qualify by age 18 (4 years doubled)
Move at 18 and you qualify by age 23 (3 years doubled plus 2 years)
Move at 20 and you qualify by age 28
Move at 25 and you don't qualify until you're 33 which is the tail end of your career

I'd have no arguments with that whatsoever.

[InBetweenWasp]

I'd prefer to make EQP qualifying years taper to reflect where the player learnt to play. If you learnt your rugby (13-18) in a country then to my mind you have a much stronger claim than if you moved as a 21 year old professional and simply waited 3 years until you're 24.

So how about you must wait 8 years to qualify but every year under 20 counts double.

Move at 14 and you qualify by age 18 (4 years doubled)
Move at 18 and you qualify by age 23 (3 years doubled plus 2 years)
Move at 20 and you qualify by age 28
Move at 25 and you don't qualify until you're 33 which is the tail end of your career

I’m not sure this would necessarily solves the talent drain that some of the second tier nations experience and if anything threatens to accelerate it as people then begin to scout players at younger ages, to ‘lock’ them in ready for Senior International squads/matches.

It’s an incredibly difficult one to solve.

Whilst we’re on the topic, i’d also like to see the option of young players picked (perhaps 23 and under) for Tier 1 Teams have the option to ‘swap’ back to a Tier 2 Team - i.e. Piutau to be able to go back and play for Tonga, even if it was an amnesty for the new few World Cup periods by World Rugby.

I think if the Islander Teams have some of their players back, they’d be far more competitive - good for the game and good for their own growth and prosperity as they begin to command better match fees, sponsorship etc etc...

[mike909]

Dombrandt is an 8.

Only an observation - but in the past late runs to the England side have tended (like Lewsey back in 03) to be experienced Prem players rather than tyros that have been hot for a season. Dombrandt is really 2023 material, and then only if he makes the grade in an England shirt.

As much as I have concerns* over the England squad, its concentrated on out of position and tyro picks - a RWC is nowhere - imo only of course - to see if you are up to the job

*I've got less and less interested in England over the last year or so - but then I really don't like EJ nor the sides he picks too often!

[welsh wasp]

There is another issue about English-born players - George North - who was picked for Wales at a very young age,  & Welsh-born players - Dewi Morris &, I think, Simon Halliday) who played for England. I suspect that is too complicated an issue to sort out.
Brett Sinkinson is the notorious case. Played for Neath, born & brought up in New Zealand, claimed to have Welsh grandparents so was picked by Wales. Nobody checked in those days but I think he was found out whilst still playing internationals - probably by a disgruntled Welsh-born back rower who he had kept out of the team.

[Shugs]

For me the lineage to


grandparents rule has more credence to it than the qualified by dint of time spent in residence. That rule seems particularly odd to me and has its basis in a less credible fact than the grandparent scenario.

So you're saying someone who's lived in a country since they were 6 months old has a less credible claim to wear that nations jersey than someone who's never lived somewhere, but happens to have a grandparent who was born there (and left when they were 6 months old)?

You can flip the scenario for grandparents too, accidents of birth on borders for England Wales and Scotland and the nearest hospital etc.

I suspect Raggs, that Shugs meant more like the scenario whereby a player qualifies via minimal residency (i.e. 3-5 years or whatever it is).  Hughes is a pretty good example of that, brought up in Fiji and then New Zealand before coming over to play professional rugby then qualifies for England via residency.  Slightly different to the Vunipola’s and Faletau who all grew up in the UK.

Yes, exactly that scenario. Hughes is a good example of it. I can't see how four or five years at a club in a country qualifies you for that country.