England Training Squad

[Raggs]

For me the lineage to


grandparents rule has more credence to it than the qualified by dint of time spent in residence. That rule seems particularly odd to me and has its basis in a less credible fact than the grandparent scenario.

So you're saying someone who's lived in a country since they were 6 months old has a less credible claim to wear that nations jersey than someone who's never lived somewhere, but happens to have a grandparent who was born there (and left when they were 6 months old)?

You can flip the scenario for grandparents too, accidents of birth on borders for England Wales and Scotland and the nearest hospital etc.

I suspect Raggs, that Shugs meant more like the scenario whereby a player qualifies via minimal residency (i.e. 3-5 years or whatever it is).  Hughes is a pretty good example of that, brought up in Fiji and then New Zealand before coming over to play professional rugby then qualifies for England via residency.  Slightly different to the Vunipola’s and Faletau who all grew up in the UK.

Yes, exactly that scenario. Hughes is a good example of it. I can't see how four or five years at a club in a country qualifies you for that country.

I'm sure he did too, but I'm pointing out that there are also very genuine instances that surely no one could argue, when residency is very valid.  Equally, having lived in another country for a decade, only as an adult, I would still have been proud to represent it on an international stage, so I don't think it's cut and dried even if the person is an adult.

As I said though (and I've said it myself in the past), a system where residency counts for double from 18 and under, though the new 5 year residency period is pretty good in my mind.

[Marlow Nick]

Of course the other option is to insist that they carry a passport for the country (plus some weird additional rules for UK).  If the rule was that you had to have a passport for the country and not allow anyone to retain dual nationality then at least it forces you to change your life both on and off the pitch and you have to meet the national government rules for a passport. It always strikes me as odd that someone can play for England while not carrying a UK passport.

[Raggs]

Of course the other option is to insist that they carry a passport for the country (plus some weird additional rules for UK).  If the rule was that you had to have a passport for the country and not allow anyone to retain dual nationality then at least it forces you to change your life both on and off the pitch and you have to meet the national government rules for a passport. It always strikes me as odd that someone can play for England while not carrying a UK passport.

But then you have very different rules for passports in different countries. I could easily envisage someone being given a passport just so they can play for that country, rather than for having lived there, worked there etc etc.

[Mellie]

Of course the other option is to insist that they carry a passport for the country (plus some weird additional rules for UK).  If the rule was that you had to have a passport for the country and not allow anyone to retain dual nationality then at least it forces you to change your life both on and off the pitch and you have to meet the national government rules for a passport. It always strikes me as odd that someone can play for England while not carrying a UK passport.

Quite right. To represent a country you must be committed to it by being or becoming a citizen or have some real heritage that entitles you to a passport.

It's too easy to get a contract for a team in another country while qualifying on residency rules, cashing in by playing for that country then going back to original country as a citizen of that country.

[Shugs]

Yes, quite agree Raggs, there are some valid cases but the current rules almost contradict each other. Player A is born in NZ, lives there for a week and then moves to England and is resident for enough time to qualify for them as well. He has Irish and Scottish parents. Technically he qualifies for all 4. Can that be right?

[Raggs]

Yes, quite agree Raggs, there are some valid cases but the current rules almost contradict each other. Player A is born in NZ, lives there for a week and then moves to England and is resident for enough time to qualify for them as well. He has Irish and Scottish parents. Technically he qualifies for all 4. Can that be right?

Yes it can. I wouldn't want to pick which country he feels closest to. Maybe his mother and father feel very close to one country, and raised him always supporting that one, regardless of where he was born, and their respective heritages.

[Shugs]

If it worked like that I'd totally agree with you. My perception is that in the majority of cases they simply choose to play for the best team they qualify for rather than the one they feel closest to. Even worse, as I feel was the case with Hughes, they opt for the biggest payer. Not saying I'd necessarily be any different but if the rules were tightened a little I think it would level the playing field in international rugby.

[wasps]

If it worked like that I'd totally agree with you. My perception is that in the majority of cases they simply choose to play for the best team they qualify for rather than the one they feel closest to. Even worse, as I feel was the case with Hughes, they opt for the biggest payer. Not saying I'd necessarily be any different but if the rules were tightened a little I think it would level the playing field in international rugby.

Credit to Nathan though, I believe he was quite open about his reasons for choosing to play for England


There again, Nathan is an edge case in some ways.
If I recall, he was a hockey player who took up rugby late.
Wasn't playing in a top tier league when wasps came calling.
He essentially learnt top tier rugby in England, so maybe there's a good case for England benefiting from that too

[baldpaul101]

Most Islanders only play for another country because of the money they can earn. That doesn't make them mercenary, remember that their wages could be all that's keeping a whole village fed & in shoes.
I'm sure most would love to be playing for their original countries but economically, it makes no sense to them.

[InBetweenWasp]

Most Islanders only play for another country because of the money they can earn. That doesn't make them mercenary, remember that their wages could be all that's keeping a whole village fed & in shoes.
I'm sure most would love to be playing for their original countries but economically, it makes no sense to them.

And this is another problem for World Rugby to try and solve.  It will just make the Island nations weaker - As more and more International Teams offer better earnings potential (and rightly so players then prioritise their families, future and villagers) the Islands suffer an increasing talent drain to other Nations.  As a result, the Islander Teams get weaker resulting in even less appeal to have them touring, or to have tours to them. 

Income gets less, so more leave in order to earn more...

Of course, it doesn’t help that money has a tendency to mysteriously vanish and find it’s way into the bank accounts of various states people and politicians.

[BG]

Just back from hols so I'm just catching up..

A lot of the examples being raised centre around the South Island nations and how they end up playing for Tier 1 countries in their area or even some that end up representing Tier 1 countries in the NH hemisphere.

Qualifying under residency rules simply as a result of fulfilling a contract in a NH league isn't right but as someone rightly pointed out, some of these players are subsidising a whole village back in their native country.

But they can do that as a pro club player though. Dan Leo has made a documentary about 1 player (Fiji perhaps) that did this and the pressure becomes unbearable at points for the player.

I object to NH unions "targetting" players who haven't quite made the cut in their own country's national setup and have researched the player's ancestory to see if they qualify (I think we know one player), or, even worse, have simply promised a place in their new union set up as long as they fullfill residency rules (which I think happend with CJ Stander and Ireland)