England Running Order Today

[RBB]

The 9/10 pairings are all club based proven pairings -

Gloucester Heinz/Cipriani
Tigers Youngs/Ford
Estate Agents Spencer/Farrell

That may be the thinking EJ is applying. However not so convinced Tigers pairing set the world alight last season!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Surprised to see that Ben T'eo is unattached.  Didn't know that.  Useful player.

I suspect that a fiddle has been made to his contract (a no cost/wages contract) at Warriors to allow him to say he is playing for a Prem side, otherwise he should not be playing for England.

[RBB]

I am struggling with his selection and that of Willi Heinz, both good players but Te'o has hardly played any club rugby and Heinz is experienced but isn't as good as Dobby. Jones has a soft spot for Te'o, he picks him time and time again, I admit he has power and is a great carrier but the fact he rarely plays club rugby and is unattached is bad form in my view. Heinz is a 32-year-old NZ national who is keeping out a young exciting English 9 in Robson, who scored twice against Italy,

What is concerning is that EJ is not building for the future but chopping and changing on a whim, these players are both 32, young EQP talent is being kept out by their selection - disappointing.

Also, uproar in Oz apparently as Quade Cooper has been overlooked, so it isn't just EJ, Quade, of course, is a marmite character who often divides opinion.

[mike909]

I struggle with EJ's selections too. Te'O hardly plays and seems injured a lot and I still think back to the Lions when Farrell and Te'O were quickly removed as 10 and 12 and the team looked better for it. That said, the Lions did have the luxury of Davies at 13

What Heinz is doing there I don't know  - I can only see it as noted above - club combinations, but its no guarantee of anything really. And Care isn't there and has all that England experience (discarded very late like Brown)

You can see sense in things like Marler being considered, as of now, and what seems like madness - Dobbie not getting game time when England were going poorly at 9 and if they know Care was for the chop....

I'm not so bothered about building for the future at a RWC - but EJ seems to have gone down a bit of a selection and tactical cul de sac in the last year. And has picked weirdly - in SA what was Brown doing at wing (only to be dropped) and if Joe C is the second coming - then play him or tell him he's for 2023 (my view) And if the attack looks that great in SA with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 how come we are where we are now?

As I've said before, losing interest in England a bit. Be glad when this era is over. Seems to have been a bit incoherent and got too attached to the winning run rather than building from 2016 on. I am biased by not liking EJ however!

[JonnyD]

Dobby should have got selected a long time ago when we toured Argentina and Jack Maunder went as the second SH and didn’t play at all. Waste of time.
I agree to play with two SHs for so long and not try anyone else, same with Hartley and same with Brown, why stick with them for so long and not try anyone out and then change it all during WC year.
Selection has been strange for a long time and I too have lost a bit of interest with england since SA tour, will obviously still be glued to the World Cup but nervous about our group.

Feel most sorry for Hughes I think. Picked when on poor form for us, arguably lost form due to England involvement and then when he picked up form he’s dropped. A victim of shields and Wilson both probably being needed in the mix.
Bet Hughes is glad for the extra Bristol wedge now if he’s not on EPS money

[Shugs]

Is it possible Hughes is still away from the country? Although to be frank if you take out the last four games of last season he's not been great for the last couple of seasons. Feel desperately sorry for Robson although it could be he will still be included if he's currently unfit. Can't believe Goode and Brown have been omitted. Daly's never a full back for me. Really hoping he comes off for England's sake but I fear the worst.

[mike909]

Daly looked great for the Lions - but at wing. Hughes was picked too often when not fit and not in any sort of form - really not another 8 for me in the squad

But too many selections that didn't look towards the RWC

[RBB]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/just-three-spots-up-for-grabs-as-eddie-jones-reveals-he-knows-the-identity-of-28-of-englands-rwc-31

Eddie Jones has revealed there are just three places left to fill to complete his 31-strong England squad for the Rugby World Cup in Japan to be named on August 12.

The head coach, who announced an official training squad on Thursday made up of 35 fit players and three rehabilitating from injury, will use the training camps and the first warm-up game with Wales on August 11 to finalise his selection decisions and will then have his chosen squad for the remaining games with Wales (August 17), Ireland (August 24) and Italy (September 6) to work out his starting XV for the tournament.

So in essence Jones is saying 28 of the squad are in this group, there are 3 places to add, so they could come from within this 38 or outside. Is he making it up as he goes along, baffling....my lack of support for his approach grows by the day!

[baldpaul101]

So when has anyone who is contributing to this thread actually been happy with an England coach & his selection strategy?

[wasps]

So when has anyone who is contributing to this thread actually been happy with an England coach & his selection strategy?

Exactly.
Every head coach that I can remember has been criticised on the internet for poor selections... even SCW.
No-one on a Wasps forum will ever change that opinion as Jones is seen as causing us to lose Cipriani and Wade.

That being said, I also don't agree with Daly at FB.
He's untested at international level at Centre. So for me, he's a wing or a 23.
I can't see Jones leaving Hughes out, so I suspect not including him in this squad is a little kick to him... and then he'll be brought back in anyway.


The thing about the wider squad selection is that it's largely irrelevant.
We all know roughly what the 23 will be, with 1 or 2 possible surprises.
The wider squad is there to support that in a World Cup, and injuries can be replaced.

Anyone on the fringe of the squad will ensure they remain fit and ready for the call to jump on a plane.
The smart ones will be holidaying somewhere in a similar timezone so they don't have to adjust too much to the time difference.


Also, bear in mind that this "I know 28 of my squad" line from Jones could just simply be a kick to everyone on the fringe to tell them there's something to really fight for.
It may be mind games, but it's the kind of mind games that some players need.

[baldpaul101]

Every head coach that I can remember has been criticised on the internet for poor selections... even SCW.

Sadly, every arm chair expert is always better than the bloke who's being paid to do it & whose living depends on how well he does it.

No-one on a Wasps forum will ever change that opinion as Jones is seen as causing us to lose Cipriani and Wade.

I must be the only one who doesn't think that then.....


What I don't understand is the constant "I can't be bothered with England under XXX" (which ever coach is in charge). When were you bothered?

 

[wasps]

Every head coach that I can remember has been criticised on the internet for poor selections... even SCW.

Sadly, every arm chair expert is always better than the bloke who's being paid to do it & whose living depends on how well he does it.

No-one on a Wasps forum will ever change that opinion as Jones is seen as causing us to lose Cipriani and Wade.

I must be the only one who doesn't think that then.....


What I don't understand is the constant "I can't be bothered with England under XXX" (which ever coach is in charge). When were you bothered?

the internet is a world where there is no middle ground... or at least it's hard to find a middle ground when only typing and not actually talking.

I'd like to think that all of us will enjoy the World Cup because it's showcasing the game that we love.
We'll also all be happy if/when England top their group and go and smash the SH teams on our way to lifting the trophy.
Until then, we can continue to slam Eddie Jones for not picking Dan Robson.... who may not even be fit.

[mike909]

What I don't understand is the constant "I can't be bothered with England under XXX" (which ever coach is in charge). When were you bothered?

For me, its never been "constant" I've always been interested in England, even in the terrible 70's  - I fully admit that I have found Jones' tenure hard to like in tone and in what's been said at times and whilst disagreeing with selection is part of the fun, I've found this regime one where the joy of playing for England and in internationals seems to be diminished.


 

[baldpaul101]

I've found this regime one where the joy of playing for England and in internationals seems to be diminished.

That's quite interesting. What makes you say that?

[mike909]

Thanks - from reading around the subject - Jones has the reputation of being a coach that does use mind games and the like and also has a tendency to play people off a bit in the squads. Also a coach that makes an impact (c.f. SA 07 RWC) but failed often over the longer term with squad relations Don't know if its true - but from what seemed to be the bonus of getting the 2015 squad to believe, for me at least, boiled over into a winning run that was an end in itself. I was quite relieved when we lost one as the team seemed to be burdened by winning.

But losing one it didn't seem to solve anything - the players that were doing the winning just seemed from the sidelines to be not enjoying the experience. There was feedback about some of the brutal sessions and also - the losses in 2018's 6Ns seemed to be those of a team that could play one way - but seemed to fear taking the initiative.

The losses then in 2018, especially to France and Scotland seemed to be a result of playing such that the team was less than the sum of their parts and the team was - to me - glum in play and attitude. You could even see the lack of initiative vs Italy - there seemed to be a block somewhere.

Now - I am no international coach - I'm an old if decent prop - but for me it seems Jones went down one route all the way to mid 2018, before suddenly changing tack and ploughing the Farrell plus bulky midfield route. It worked, just in the AI's but I could see the same issues - even though we in the end murdered the Aussies - they managed to get within score easily enough and the game vs Japan was embarrassing in the team's lack of ability to meet a challenge. And this 6Ns was one where I ended up disappointed for Scotland rather than pleased England had got a draw.

Now - that's all just my "gut feel" about England and the coach and how they play and a poorly explained effort as to why! And I'll fully admit its probably not a rational position - but the combination of coach and watching those games - has just left me feeling rather cold towards England at present.