England Running Order Today

[Rossm]

No-one on a Wasps forum will ever change that opinion as Jones is seen as causing us to lose Cipriani and Wade.


Personally speaking, I will never, ever forgive him for Sam Jones' dreadful injury debacle.

[Shugs]

I'm no great fan of Jones but I want England to do well and am interested in them whoever is in charge. I don't really blame him for us losing Wade. I think 90 per cent of an international coaches job is getting selection right. They're not going to improve players or teach them anything with the time limits on how long they have them. For me Jones has got selection largely right with a few notable exceptions for me such as Goode, Robson and Smith.

[wasps]

Mike... I agree.
I'm an old, but rubbish prop, so maybe it's why I agree with a lot of what you say.

Jones' reputation as a short term head coach preceded him.
We reaped the benefits of that initially and then eventually started to lose a few games.

However, I feel that the reputation does Jones a disservice.
Unless you're in charge of the All Blacks, every coach will have winning and losing runs, however, a pattern has formed whereby Jones will get a long winning run at the start of his tenure.
It's obvious that that will eventually tail off over time.
He gets the players to play above themselves, the team punches above its weight for a period of time, but that can't last forever.

People could see possible issues from the outside, and I'm sure that all of the coaches could see them from the inside too, but it's a very brave man who makes changes while a team is riding the wave.

Ultimately, we appear to be back to a traditional English team.
Power up front and a fair amount of power behind too... With some possible X factor thrown in (I'm thinking Daly, Manu, as well as the Vunipolas and Itoje)


I definitely agree also that at times the attitude in camp hadn't seemed like it's a happy place.
My approach to sport has always been about making it fun.
That being said, maybe international rugby shouldn't be about having a laugh with your mates. That's what club rugby is for.
Maybe international rugby should be about winning


Stuart Lancaster is getting a lot of plaudits now, but certainly didn't as England head coach, he was criticised for many bad decisions and ultimately he had an appalling world cup.
I don't get how Jones has had his contract renewed, and I certainly wouldn't be making the same squad selections as him, but if England have a successful world cup, I'll put that to one side and accept that he's doing ok

[mike909]

Thank you sir - as I said - its not anything but a gut feeling - and for me it wasn't so much that the run ended - it was that it seemed to become an end in itself - ahead of squad and team selection and development

We've sort of reverted to trad England, but it looks more like a touch of the flat track bullies who fail to think (or are not allowed to/don't feel they can think) if things don't go to plan. This has ended up with bizarre games like vs SA last summer when England looked like the ABs on something for a bit and then just stopped when the tactics of SA changed a bit. Ditto vs Scotland in the 6Ns both this and last year.

1014.com showed how England hadn't adapted to the breakdown changes - using the Scotland game in 2018 and you could see the "does not compute" look on people's faces too often.

Lancaster's record pre RWC was decent - good tour to NZ and winning 4 of 5 each 6N's and probably did the best with the players at that time. However mucked around with the RWC was very wrong - I don't believe that was SL.

No - regardless of the Wasps player issues - just can't warm to the team under Jones.

[BG]

We will never know what goes on behind closed doors when it comes to selection.

Dobby will be disappointed but he only arrived at the party quite late, was barely used in the 6N's and then the condition was diagnosed. It may well be that medical people have intervened on his behalf. Other more qualified people on this site might shed more light on this but I'm wondering if he's been advised not to go on long haul flights?

The selection of Heinz though is bizarre.

As to Lanacaster.. he'd done a really good job in the run up to the WC but I think he was told to select Burgess as the rumour was the that RFU had partly financed his code switch. I suspect Farrell Snr was partly behind this. The whole saga was embarrassing. He was playing 6 for Bath.. didn't know how to pack down for scrums and was a like a rabbit caught in some headlights at lineouts.. but then England played him at 12 which was probably his better position.

Back to the squad - the ommission of Goode baffles me. The guy is solid under the high ball and is defensively astute and has the distribution skills of a top 10.

[wycombewasp]

its not really a surprise about the mood in the camp, you get a group of 35 people they are going to gossip,everyone in the camp knows ED is not the best full back or winger, even ED knows, all the sarries players must look at that and scratch their heads, OF thinks he is the best 10 in the world but many of the group know he's not, the same go's for Wade, they all faced him in the Prem. and knew how devastating he could be and knew his defence was ok, so in private they must question Jones selections and i would think this sows doubt in the team.

[mike909]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/80833744/eddie-jones-will-make-then-break-england-phil-kearns

When I raised this back in the day on another comments area (Guardian) I was told not to be silly....that said I had probably spent more time than is healthy defending Wade's reputation (Though why I had to defend a player who scored than many tries I don't know...but Sarries fans seemed to want to take him down and told me I was "obsessed")

This seemed pertinent

But former Wallabies captain Phil Kearns believes the "fanatical" Jones may end up causing more damage to his own players during his tenure as England coach.

Kearns said Jones would make England – then break them.

Whilst fully accepting that Stuff may well have an agenda, ditto Kearns...these are an interesting read

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/106716698/departures-are-sign-that-eddie-jones-has-driven-his-staff-too-hard

Gustard has been followed out of the door by Dan Abrahams, the England team psychologist, and Dean Benton, the head of sports science. In all, 15 members of staff, from kitmen to physiotherapists, technical analysts to conditioning experts, have vanished from the fold under Jones's stewardship. That is too many to be passed off as a natural state of flux.

And this

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/he-tears-can-emotionally-destroy-11018379

I can see why I might think the team is a little "tense"!

[baldpaul101]

Some interesting thoughts and points.

Its hard to know what the players think because none are daft enough to openly criticize the head coach.
Two examples would seem to point to players being happy playing for EJ though.

Marler, has gone back to the squad. Not the behaviour of a man who was not happy in that atmosphere?
Haskell, has only ever been complimentary of Eddie and as he hasn't been realistically in with a chance of a squad place for a while & has retired now anyway so could say what he likes if he felt strongly about anything.

I feel that Jones has a lot of respect from his players and a lot of loyalty. But I think Lancaster had also. However we will probably never know for sure.

Whilst I don't agree with everything he says, all his tactics or all his selections, he is the coach so its his train set and I'll cheer England on with him in charge, like I did under all the other coaches who's opinions I likewise didn't agree with in their entirety! No coach EVER gets it 100% correct. Its just the way it is.               

[mike909]

I only posted that lot for interest

And my personal lack of enthusiasm for England under Jones is not logically based or argued! No, no one gets it right all the time - I've just found following England hard to enjoy in recent times and that's just my impression as a spectator of the games and my increasing disquiet about the very late in the day changes to squad and team and tactics

This wasn't improved by the Sam Jones issue  - but I'd be surprised if a few Quins fans weren't exactly fans given what happened to Care and Robshaw and Brown so late in the day.

Re Marler and Hask - a few months to get to the RWC might be a deal worth making - be surprised to see him in the 6Ns given he's left the England set up due to (what appeared to be) stress and you know - I love Hask - cut him and he bleeds Gold and Black - but he is the sort of guy who is unlikely to allow things to get on top of him!

My personal view on the relations in the team stem also from the mental frigidity the team seems to have demonstrated more and more when things stop going to plan. But its just my impression - and as I said - I am not arguing that my position is backed by logic or anything similar!