Salary cap

[matelot22]

With Daly, Vuni x 2, OF, Maro and Kruis, Williams, George, that's 8 Lions starters plus Maitland and Loz and I'm sure Brad isn't playing for buttons...and Skelton and Goode and Rhodes, Berger and Wray ffs....and the SH's etc etc

That's something I've mentioned on several forums, only to be patronisingly told that I don't understand the academy credits system!!! Even on one of the Wasps Facebook pages I was told that by one of our fans who obstinately refused to believe that Sarries may be breaking the cap.

[westwaleswasp]

A lot of guys their fans seem to credit as their academy products are not. Often the line "we turned them into stars" ignores the fact that they simply have signed players close to international selection, even allowing for Eddie's incoherent picks at "apprentice" level. They shop at Waitrose and M n S signing top internationals and top promising youngsters.

How many are home grown? Not Skelton, Billy, Lozowski, Daly, Singleton, nor any of the wings, all of whom are quality. It is a fair shopping list, even if they do have a fair chunk of homegrown players it is not quite the ten homegown stars and 3 star signings plus two journeymen that they often imply.
The main thing is the business deal thing stinks.

[Neils]

Also if you watch the England Unders (16/18/20) there are few of their players being picked compared to other teams (inc ours).

[matelot22]

A lot of guys their fans seem to credit as their academy products are not. Often the line "we turned them into stars" ignores the fact that they simply have signed players close to international selection, even allowing for Eddie's incoherent picks at "apprentice" level. They shop at Waitrose and M n S signing top internationals and top promising youngsters.

How many are home grown? Not Skelton, Billy, Lozowski, Daly, Singleton, nor any of the wings, all of whom are quality. It is a fair shopping list, even if they do have a fair chunk of homegrown players it is not quite the ten homegown stars and 3 star signings plus two journeymen that they often imply.
The main thing is the business deal thing stinks.

Couldn't agree more, and whilst I understand that their own fans would try/want to believe that all was above board, I simply cannot get my head around how a supporter of any other club could not be suspicious.

[mike909]

A lot of guys their fans seem to credit as their academy products are not. Often the line "we turned them into stars" ignores the fact that they simply have signed players close to international selection, even allowing for Eddie's incoherent picks at "apprentice" level. They shop at Waitrose and M n S signing top internationals and top promising youngsters.

How many are home grown? Not Skelton, Billy, Lozowski, Daly, Singleton, nor any of the wings, all of whom are quality. It is a fair shopping list, even if they do have a fair chunk of homegrown players it is not quite the ten homegown stars and 3 star signings plus two journeymen that they often imply.
The main thing is the business deal thing stinks.

That they can shop for Daly whilst keeping all their top internationals smells fishy by itself.

Players in for Sarries this season include Daly and Singleton - both England squad and Carre a Wales U20 prop. They have had some retirements and released players...

[baldpaul101]

There has to be something fishy going on at Sarries.
If they are getting some of their wages tied up into investmenst for the future its no wonder they don't lose many players, who'd want to leave & jeapodise your future investment returns?


However, I don't believe players go there just for high wages. Yes, money is important & I don't believe any of them have taken pay cuts or are worse off than similar levek players at other clubs, but equally Sarries are doing something right in the way they look after their players and other clubs really do need to catch up in that department.

[Lwasp]

But that's the point BP, if you are able to do something right in the way they look after their players because of the cap breaches then other clubs cannot catch up in that department. And even if not expenditure that is cap busting, but expenditure that is provided by sugar daddy ownership rather than rugby generated revenues the only way for other clubs to catch up is to find similar levels of idiot money, and by that I mean owners willing to lose unlimited sums to compete.

This is the path that football has trodden and look where that has got them.

Wasps are attempting to invest in their training facilities, it takes time and money. But funding squad holidays etc. maybe always beyond our means.

[mike909]

However, I don't believe players go there just for high wages. Yes, money is important & I don't believe any of them have taken pay cuts or are worse off than similar levek players at other clubs, but equally Sarries are doing something right in the way they look after their players and other clubs really do need to catch up in that department.

Its not so much that there are high wages for any one player - its that they can offer a package to a larger pool of international/near international players than other clubs by - allegedly - using co investments that is the issue.

If looking after your players means using means to pay more overall - then Sarries would be rightly sanctioned.

[Raggs]

But that's the point BP, if you are able to do something right in the way they look after their players because of the cap breaches then other clubs cannot catch up in that department. And even if not expenditure that is cap busting, but expenditure that is provided by sugar daddy ownership rather than rugby generated revenues the only way for other clubs to catch up is to find similar levels of idiot money, and by that I mean owners willing to lose unlimited sums to compete.

This is the path that football has trodden and look where that has got them.

Wasps are attempting to invest in their training facilities, it takes time and money. But funding squad holidays etc. maybe always beyond our means.

100x yes on the fact that breaching the cap can make it easier to rotate. If you can replace Goode with Williams, Maitland with Lewington, Kruis with Skelton etc. It's far easier to rotate.

People point to their high homegrown numbers too, but I look at that and think it's the same thing again. Would George, Spencer etc have stuck with sarries until their mid 20s, despite clearly being quality players (George was already being talked about in England terms, whilst still playing 2nd fiddle to Brits), if not being well rewarded? It's much easier to hold onto someone if you can afford to pay them starter wages, whilst still using them off the bench.

[BG]

Many good points made above.

Here are the rules in detail if anyone is bored today.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf

Sarries supporters argument is that they receive a lot of credits.

I'm not sure its as much as they think its is. EPS credit is limited to £80k per player "MAX". The max element is linked to how much time any one player is actually being retained and used by by England, so it doesn't always equate to £80 which is what caught Wasps out as they have factored in Haskell being in the EPS but but then withdrew because of injury (his toe I think)

Academy credits is set at a £600k ceiling but the credit is calculated on a MAX of £50k per player (equating to 12 homegrown players). As others have pointed out, how many  fulfill the criteria of being counted as "home grown"

Its disappointing that it seems (I can't read all newspapers online because of paywalls) most newspapers can't be bothered to investigate this any further. The same goes for TV pundits.

I'm guessing that's because the various media need to keep on the right side of players and clubs to ensure having access for interviews etc.

[Marlow Nick]

Saracens are sending 15 players to the World Cup 8 of which are B&I Lions. Left behind are another 7 players with international caps and as emergency cover they have brought in a South African with a mere 5 caps to his name. So that's 23 international players in a squad of 41. No other squad in the premiership can afford to retain 23 internationals. However they are doing it they are defeating one of the key principles of the cap which is to create a roughly level playing field.

[Tervueren]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49648586

Will they each be on £25 per week and playing for the glory and camaraderie as per the men's team?

[matelot22]

I heard they were only going to be paid in bread, cheese and a real estate portfolio 

[Rossm]

I heard they were only going to be paid in bread, cheese and a real estate portfolio 

LOL

[Tervueren]

I heard they were only going to be paid in bread, cheese and a real estate portfolio 

Pain au Sarrasin?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17056/32310-pain-au-sarrasin-buckwheat-bread