Salary cap

[matelot22]

I heard they were only going to be paid in bread, cheese and a real estate portfolio 

Pain au Sarrasin?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17056/32310-pain-au-sarrasin-buckwheat-bread

 

[RBB]

The plot thickens or does it? Very possibly supposition, however it will be interesting to see what takes place over the next week or two?

Sportsmail has learned that informal talks among the top-flight clubs have produced a consensus that Saracens must be severely punished if they are found guilty of having flouted the £7million cap. This has led to a resolve to pursue the matter through the courts if the Premiership and European Champions Cup holders appeal against any sanctions. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7474679/Rugby-news-Premiership-clubs-poised-demand-Saracens-kicked-league.html

[wasps]

Severely punished ?!?!?

If it's anything like the football fair play rules them just get fined, which is ridiculous when a club has more money than anyone else and isn't too bothered about not getting a return on their investment

[BG]

A fine simply won't cut it. The article says the the maximum punishment is a deduction of 35 pts which probably won't effect Sarries too much.

The big question is what happens to Sarries previous results over the last few years. If they are allowed to keep their league position then that's sort of similar to finding an athlete has been doping but allowing them to keep the medals they won whilst cheating (plus all the winnings etc)

Most sports I can think of strips the athlete of any results that were achieved when the athelete was known to be cheating (Lance armstrong, Marion Jones, ) and quite often organisers of events have sued that athelete to recover the money paid in winnings.

The other point is that Sarries are still benefiting - they still have a very large squad of international players which we assume they've been able to assemble and keep over the last few years based on them being able to find other ways to pay the players.

I really hope the 12 other PRL clubs don't lets this go.

[Neils]

Ban from Europe now, deduct points and a fine. Nothing will happen though!

EAs board as usual in complete denial.

[Rifleman Harris]

I would go for stripping of titles since the last cover up.  That should have served as a suitable warning, so anything since then should be scrubbed, then a 5 year ban from Europe and relegation.  Isn't that what the ARL did a few years ago to one of their teams? An example needs to be made. I can see the carpet being lifted and the broom being readied to sweep the issue away.

[RBB]

I concur with the points made around punitive measures, but the legacy that the EAs have created by potentially cheating is the larger issue. Even if (and it is a MASSIVE IF) the EAs are found to be at fault and some sort of pointless/mediocre punishment is meted out. The issue remains that the EAs are well set up for at least another 3 years, if not longer, with players that have benefited from their interpretation of the salary cap rules.

I am not disputing that the EAs look after their players well, they clearly do, and why wouldn't a player who is young or in their prime want to move to Allianz Park, the concern is the methods applied and how it undermines fair competition and thumbs a nose at the paying public and lovers of the game.

Perhaps (on top of any other punishment) the EAs should be forced to sell any clearly identifiable (i.e those engaged in the creative interpretation of the cap) players and any of the associated business partnerships be voided, therefore taking away the unfair benefit available to a player (I am sure Wray would be cancelling anyway if they no longer played for him), if they play for them. People may say they feel sorry for the players they are knowingly engaged in the partnerships, then they are complicit in the whole scheme. This wishful thinking is of course a pipe dream as the RFU will not what to unsettle any of the England contingent who are away in Japan who make up a significant part of the overall squad and England's chances of success. Therefore that will pass the whip hand back to the EAs. The only course of action is for the other 12 clubs to unite, as the Daily Mail article suggests, in order to force the issue. I sense that many clubs may not be so vociferous in their views and the unity will fail to happen, therefore cover-up 2.0 will take place and nothing will change.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong though.

[mike909]

This needs to be resolved.

As in the other thread, a team that can send 15 Internationals to the RWC and yet still have these players back home:

Goode, Skelton, Isiekwe, Calum Clarke, Ben Spencer, Wrigglesworth, Damian Willemse, Barritt, Viliami Hakalo, Loz,

All internationals

Plus Ben Earl - England squad 2019, Malins, Eng U -20's, Tompkins, Saxons and U-20's, Lewington, Saxons, Gallaghar - mere U-20's WC winner.

Must be very attractive as a team to play for....or.....paying for 25 Internationals plus other top Prem players might be above a salary cap....

[Westy68]

I'm also of the agreement that nothing will be done, which will just ruin the season for me as Sarries will win everything again easily.

If found guilty, then for me, Sarries must be stripped of all titles and players involved must be told to find a new club.

The 35 points will not get Sarries relegated but it should stop them getting into the top 4 maybe top 6 

[HDAWG]

I want Sarries punished as well, stripped of their European and premiership titles during which they did this. However it won't because the premiership would admit the best team in England and Europe are cheats. I don't think anything will come from this. I want it to, but it won't.

[Rifleman Harris]

This is the case I was thinking of, and the one that most closely matches what Saracens have been up too (from Wikipedia - italics are mine to highlight the punishment):

In 2010, officials from the Melbourne Storm revealed that the club had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations between 2006 and 2010. By running a well-organized dual contract and bookkeeping system they concealed from the NRL a total of $3.78 million in payments made to players outside of the salary cap, including $303,000 in 2006, $459,000 in 2007, $957,000 in 2008, $1.021 million in 2009 and $1.04 million in 2010. As a result, the Melbourne Storm were stripped of the 2007 and 2009 premierships, 2006–2008 minor premierships and the 2010 World Club Challenge trophy, and fined a record $1.689 million. $1.1 million in NRL prize money was equally distributed between the remaining 15 NRL clubs, $89,000 in prize money from the World Club Challenge was distributed to the Leeds Rhinos, and the maximum of $500,000 was fined for breaching the salary cap regulations. They were ordered to cut their payroll by $1.0125 million, deducted all eight premiership points received during the season and barred from receiving premiership points for the remainder of the season. The points penalty meant that the club won the 2010 wooden spoon. Legal action by the former directors of the club against the penalties collapsed, and the matter was referred to ASIC, the Australian Tax Office, the Victorian State Revenue Office, and the Victoria Police.[13] The club's former CEO, Brian Waldron, and financial officers Matt Hanson, Paul Gregory and Cameron Vale were all suspended for life.

[Neils]

Now that would be a result in the EAs case. Strangely I remembered the case but couldn't for the life of me remember where and when - so thanks for that.

[Rifleman Harris]

Google was my friend!!

[wasps]

I can't see too much happening.

I suspect there are employee laws that will mean players can't be forced out of they're under contract.
Although their contract would only be for their official salaries.


The thing is, when we look at the number of internationals and lions that Saracens have, and compare that to us, it would make you think that sarries must be at least doubling the salary cap.... Not just 3 or 4 players over it.

As such, surely we'd have seen that all of their international players would have companies in their names, rather than just the 3 or 4 that have surfaced.


Based on international player numbers alone, these few companies don't seem to make the numbers add up..... Unless it is just a small handful of Saracens players that earn the real big money

[Marlow Nick]

My fear is that this will be fudged yet again.
A one time 35 point deduction and a bit of a fine will not hurt them too much. In effect all it means is they won't win the premiership for one year and they'll be excluded from the champions cup for one year.
If I were in charge (which clearly I'm not) I'd make them operate on a reduced cap. If they can avoid relegation whilst having a salary cap of say £5.5 million and auditors crawling over their accounts at least twice a year for 3-4 years then maybe they'll realise how half the clubs have been feeling.
Interesting to see how many players have to be let go iat the end of this season.

Of course it won't happen. They will get away with it again.