Wasps vs Agen Match Thread (Spoilers)

[Chunky24]

Someone like Rory Hutchinson at Saints had a similar journey to Umaga. Joined Saints, early first team appearance then had to wait 2 seasons for next first team appearance playing in A team and loan spells at Moseley, Cov and Rotherham and now a first team regular and international so this sort of pathway not an unusual way to develop a young player.

[Hymenoptera]

I also agree that Umaga was very good but to say he was the reason we won is over egging it a bit, we won because we were better than Agen who were awful. He was good but not that good. To say Dai treats him badly is a weird comment.

My comment was not directed at his playing. I watched him quite closely during the game. He was constantly orchestrating the team, and they were mainly doing as he told them. THAT is what made the difference.

Ash gave his heart, and he leads through example, but the team needs more than that. As to treating him badly? How many games did he sit on the bench the whole match? What is the point of that? And yet, that's what he got, more than once. That is simply disrespectful. The game these days is about the 23.

I think your emotions are getting the better of you here. You directly stated that Umaga won us that game...fact is he just didn't.
How can you be disrespectful to an academy player? It's not like Jonny Wilkinson was on our bench. To quote an EJ saying about the 23 is fine but there is no guarantee that you start because your on the bench, there's no logic to that. I will refer you again to games where he didn't walk on water as a reason that he was bench cover.
Im not disagreeing with you that he played well because he did but it should be left at that because thats the reality. His treatment, yesterday translated to a good performance, isnt that the point? As i stated in my original post I wouldnt be adverse to him starting but i'll take it as it comes, having seen good and bad from him, as you'd expect.
As for Ash, if a player gives his heart and leads through example what more are you looking for..what changes would you have implemented in the game, im not sure what your gripe is, we didn't have the Curry brothers waiting to come on..not sure what there was to do differently.

[wasps]

Young, developing players often have good and bad performances.
A sign of a good coach could be that you only / mostly see the player play well. That doesn't necessarily mean that player will always play well, just that the coaches play then in games that suit them, or when they're going through a period of good training, or when the rest of the team suits them.

I'm certainly not going to say that Dai always gets it right, but to see a young player play well shouldn't be a reason to criticise Dai.
It should be a reason to appreciate that he may actually be developing the player well.



As for leaving him on the bench for 80 minutes, Dai has previously been lambasted for using his whole bench and then having 14 players on the pitch at the end of an injury occurs.
He stated a few years ago that he'd learnt from that.
So it's actually a case of balancing the development of the player against the situation on the pitch at the time.


Not everything that Dai does regarding youth players is bad

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Fact is, this is just a debate. Nothing more. Nobody has to be 'right'. We never will be, without the benefit of hindsight. I think anybody who takes my opinion (on matters rugby) with anything less than a pinch of salt is mad, or at least not playing with a full deck of cards.

What would I do if I were in Dai's shoes as DoR and had to choose? Panic. Who on earth would put me in charge of anything? Not me, that's for sure. I think Jacob's style and approach suits the other Wasps players more than does Sopoaga's.

So, do you rebuild the team (that was built sort of around Cips and Wade) around Sopoaga, or do you find a drop in replacement (albeit far less experienced)? I won't answer that one.

[Shugs]

It's a fair point NWW. For me Sopoaga has talent but my perception is that a lack on confidence has resulted in him playing too deep. Umaga was more in traffic yesterday albeit against a weak side. If Sopoaga can play a bit more like he did against Bath there's no need to throw Umaga in. I'd like him to be used sparingly for now but still seeing some game time. Of course the key for both is to be playing on the front foot which is a luxury we've not afforded our ten much in the last year or so.

[Stinging Wasp]

Liked the look of Umaga. Has skills beyond his years and reminded me a bit of Kinga at times. MLB doesn't really do it for me but he was solid, but I think Sops would do a far better job there, especially with MK outside him. Owlett over Brookes for me too and Wolstenholme over Dobby until he's properly fit as he was struggling big time. Glad I wasn't on the wing yesterday because it certainly saved on the shower water!

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[HDAWG]

It's very simple. Give the player who shows promise more opportunities until you're confident he's starting player material.

Willis was given opportunity due to injury, then he was a regular on the bench, then he was first choice flanker. And he over took James Haskell.

I reckon Dai will use the same method with Jacob, if he carries on this form against all teams, we may no longer require Sopoaga. Because at the moment he's an expensive bench player. If he's as good if not better than Umaga, great! Competition for fly half. But he's not shown that much promise compared to Umaga so far this season in roughly the same amount of games.

[Chunky24]

Liked the look of Umaga. Has skills beyond his years and reminded me a bit of Kinga at times. MLB doesn't really do it for me but he was solid, but I think Sops would do a far better job there, especially with MK outside him. Owlett over Brookes for me too and Wolstenholme over Dobby until he's properly fit as he was struggling big time. Glad I wasn't on the wing yesterday because it certainly saved on the shower water!

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Brookes has to start for me, when fit he is a guy you build a scrum round, but having Owlett on the bench gives the option to make the change after 50 minutes as Brookes tires rather than 10 minutes later when he already has.

[mike909]

I'm with Chunky, Brookes has to start - when alongside Taylor plus our best LH, we have a very decent front row which isn't something to be sniffed at!

12 is an issue - Jimmy is ageing - as are we all - I think MLB had a very hard first season when it would have been expected he would have had a gentle intro to the Prem with Jimmy first choice. He was, for me, burned out by having to take on the 12 shirt, next to a new 10 and a team rather denuded by injury. I think he will be ok if managed properly and had put in much better looking performances this season

Robson isn't fit, surely, leave him out until he is

As for the choices across the team, the pack has lots of decent options in front row and back row, I think we probably just need a little patience, but not too much, we need some Prem points. Exeter away, wouldn't be my choice of next game!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Robson isn't fit, surely, leave him out until he is

We can't know what is going on there, but he was not the Dobby we had last year, before the blood clotting scare. But then comes another problem. We have Porter and Wusty. Based on what I saw of Porter on Saturday, Wusty would be my starter choice, but he had a knock to the ankle that had made him unavailable this last weekend? Is he fit? Decisions, decisions. I don't envy Dai.

For me, Porter was too slow and his kicks were not good at all. someone said it was nice to see Dobby kicking so well at the weekend, but he did some pretty awful ones too, where Agen were straight back to where he had kicked from, thus making the kick totally pointless. Kicks are only of use if you gain something. Kicking to put yourself back under more pressure is a game losing strategy.

[mike909]

No, we can't know - but we can see he's not himself. It pains me to see Joe playing so well for Glaws...But it does Robson no good to play games if not performing.

[Hymenoptera]

Robson isn't fit, surely, leave him out until he is

We can't know what is going on there, but he was not the Dobby we had last year, before the blood clotting scare. But then comes another problem. We have Porter and Wusty. Based on what I saw of Porter on Saturday, Wusty would be my starter choice, but he had a knock to the ankle that had made him unavailable this last weekend? Is he fit? Decisions, decisions. I don't envy Dai.

For me, Porter was too slow and his kicks were not good at all. someone said it was nice to see Dobby kicking so well at the weekend, but he did some pretty awful ones too, where Agen were straight back to where he had kicked from, thus making the kick totally pointless. Kicks are only of use if you gain something. Kicking to put yourself back under more pressure is a game losing strategy.

I thought Robsons kicks were awful at the weekend. I'm less worried about his fitness than I am about his decision making and execution...I have no idea whats going on with him. The fact he is captain just complicates the matter.
Form 9 at the moment is Wolly so for me he starts, who'd have thought it.
As for the 10 debate, Umaga starts. You can call it a risk but actually is it? Remove the names and ask whether Sops form is any better....and he's had 2 seasons to impact our backline. Time to put in place a plan for next season at 10 and it could be Umaga. Nice guy as Sops is, it just hasn't worked out.

[westwaleswasp]

I  agree with much of what Hymenoptera says here. I don't see it as a risk to keep a ten who has played well, esp with Lima to cover if needed. If Lima had been setting the backline on fire there would be no debate.
Robson has not been himself of late. I do hope he can recover his former self, I would like to start him but can see the argument that he is not there yet. Tired legs can affect the descision making too.

[Raggs]

Just watched again. Not sure what Robson has done wrong to be honest. Most his kicks are pretty competitive, one or two chases weren't great, but they all had good air time. Played fast at the rucks when it was possible to do so. I know a lot were upset with the kick in the BB game, but considering field position and scoreline, it was a fairly sensible kick.

Don't like Porter's box kicks, very low angle and poor air time.

Umaga was very very good. Sops is more steady, but not bad I feel.

I really don't like Fekitoa. He's constantly trying too hard to beat the line, and in doing so runs and skips sideways, meaning any gameplan/pattern is ruined, and the support don't know what to do. Ran some great lines, but needs to really calm down.