Always a Wasp

Author Topic: It is being released [allegedly]  (Read 8243 times)

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2020, 09:09:45 AM »
Or there is more going on than we know about which is why the option to open their books was turned down.

If we believe their PR then without these extra investments they were actually under the cap.

I do not believe for one second that is true.
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mike909

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2020, 10:07:43 AM »
Or there is more going on than we know about which is why the option to open their books was turned down.

If we believe their PR then without these extra investments they were actually under the cap.

I do not believe for one second that is true.

This. I think like someone else said - it was like Sarries leaked this version of events to get a reaction like "oh, is that it?"

Tervueren

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2020, 10:21:38 AM »
They have Venter touting the "all is above board - but that kindly elderly genteleman with a pocket full of Werthers kept dishing out extra pocket money" narrative, now the leak of the report and then the statement from St. Nigel which seems to be more about him taking the blame since he has already been caught out, and protecting other who might be complicit.

Meanwhile, why are they allegedly over the cap this year? Their reported salaries must be under, or else it would get picked up from their annual submission, so surely  something else must be going on, but the relegation is by agreement so there won't be a report.

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2020, 10:33:46 AM »
Yet the official report starts with page after page of deaing with all the legal challenges Sarries made to show that the cap itself was illegal. Which was in no way connected to the fact that they completely inadvertently exceeded it by buying a few small presents for people who deserved them.  A bottle of champagne here, a nice notebook there, a nice branded t-shirt here, a massive house in London there...
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Tervueren

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2020, 10:52:15 AM »
I loved how they quoted their own statements back at them to refute some of their arguments regarding the legitimacy of the cap.

They really showed themselves to be a bunch of weasels (apologies to the mammal referenced) but not very competent.

Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2020, 12:01:19 PM »
I like that - Incompetent Weasles.
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wasps

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2020, 07:20:43 AM »

Who could these 10+ locks be that are officially paid more than Maro Itoje?

I can envisage that we've been desperate to retain Joe Launchbury so he could be very well paid - albeit likely as a marquee player.

So, if salary is related to ability at all, I'm assuming some of those top 10 paid locks must be


Launchbury
Lawes
Kruis
Skelton

Symons ?
Atwood ?


Who else?

Either way, 2 of those listed above play for Saracens and I must be wrong as I can't see any lock at Saracens earning more than Itoje

Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2020, 07:34:30 AM »
I did that exercise in my head yesterday and struggled as much as you.. Beggars belief.
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Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2020, 07:39:04 AM »
Courtesy of ukms on DW -

Full article if anyone can’t access DT


It is almost endearing, this steadfast insistence by Saracens that their demotion and disgrace stem from nothing more than a spot of clerical oversight. The full details of the disciplinary report that triggered their relegation from the Premiership highlight how their methods of subverting the salary cap were, to say the least, exotic. An interest-free loan to help the Vunipola brothers buy a property, lump-sum payments to Maro Itoje from a hospitality company: these are not the actions of a club that had simply forgotten how to use a calculator.

Let us spell out Saracens’ behaviour for what it is. For three consecutive seasons, they cheated their way to glory, and could offer no means of proving that they were not doing so again. They have expressed contrition only to their own fans, not to the clubs left in the shadow of their ill-gotten success. And their commitment to transparency is such that when their chief executive, Edward Griffiths, was approached for comment by the BBC outside Allianz Park, he spread his hand over the camera lens, like a fugitive double glazing salesman on Rogue Traders.
Somehow, in the face of Saracens’ recklessness, there are still those who feel they have been hard done-by. There are claims that the club’s treatment has been “vindictive”, as one staunch defender of the club put it, and disproportionate. After all, or so this curious logic goes, they only breached the cap for 2017-18 by a meagre £98,000. In such a school of thought, there is no mention that over the previous campaign, they overspent by £1.1 million, or in 2018-19 by £906,000. Nor is there much allowance for the fact that when Saracens accepted relegation they avoided a full audit of their affairs.

Proportion is all about perspective. And viewed from another angle, there is an argument that Saracens’ sanctions do not go far enough. In other codes, plenty of precedent exists for punishing clubs found guilty of financial irregularities by stripping them of their titles. In 2010, Melbourne Storm conceded that they had committed serious breaches of the salary cap, via a dual contract and bookkeeping system, which left National Rugby League in Australia oblivious to £1.8 million in outside payments to players. The upshot? The loss of the two Premierships that they had won in 2007 and 2009. With relegation not an option in NRL, the Storm were also compelled to play an entire campaign without the chance to score points.

For now, Saracens hold on to the two domestic crowns they secured during their period of cap-busting, not because their transgressions were of any lesser magnitude than the Storm’s, but because the Premiership lacks the capacity to take them away. It is an impotence that irks Darren Childs, the Premiership’s CEO, who said this week: “I was surprised we don’t have the power to do that, but we don’t. We have to deal with it on that basis, but looking at the future regulations, it is absolutely top of the agenda.”

It is a wonder that rival clubs, where livelihoods have been damaged by Saracens’ largesse, are not demanding an extraordinary general meeting to change the statutes. As owner of Exeter, Tony Rowe has watched his club lose the past two Premiership finals at the hands of Saracens, whom he insists should now be denuded of that silverware. His is hardly an outlandish view. Knowing what we do now about the reigning champions’ creative accounting, their last two titles are irredeemably tarnished. The spectacle of their championship kit being flogged from the club shop at knockdown prices tells you as much.

Rugby needs not merely to penalise Saracens for dragging the game into disrepute. It needs formally to disown the achievements that arose from their manipulative, off-the-book deals. Beyond this, it should also examine the loopholes that allowed Nigel Wray, the club’s departed chairman, to enter into private financial arrangements with the players. And what about the role of players’ agents in signing off on all this? There is a sense already that Saracens feel that they are not the only club culpable. Only by all clubs opening their books will we know whether or not rugby has a deep-rooted cultural issue here.
For the moment, forget the fatuous thesis that Saracens were just too good on the field, or that they could have beaten the All Blacks on their day, never mind Exeter. They acquired such quality, in large part, by their contempt for the salary cap, which they disguised in cute ways that suggested they knew exactly what they were doing. Slice it however you like, this is cheating, and the sport must disavow not just the act itself, but the proceeds from it.

Saracens’ advocates, who maintain that the club have flourished solely by their devotion to “humility” and “work rate”, are resorting to ever more desperate defences. They point out how the club has upheld far more progressive attitudes than most to mental health and concussion protocols. Well, Lance Armstrong raised millions for his cancer charity, but that did not bring exoneration from his status as a weapons-grade cheat. And when cycling’s global governing body acted, very belatedly, against him, they struck each of his seven Tour de France titles from the record. Some taints are too deep to erase.

It is only bureaucratic detail that is preventing the Premiership from taking similar action against Saracens. Childs would clearly like to have the option of invalidating their titles on the table, but a quirk of the rules means he cannot invoke it retrospectively. But only with such a severe step can rugby demonstrate that it has wiped the slate clean. All that Saracens accomplished between 2016 and 2019 does not just come with an asterisk: it is, thanks to their assembling of a squad at a far greater expense than the rules permitted, null and void. Rugby league showed the way by expunging the Storm’s feats altogether. Now union must follow suit with Saracens, if it is ever to deter similar misdeeds in future, or to defuse the poisonous rancour that this saga has unleashed
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Rossm

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2020, 09:10:45 AM »
Thanks for posting Neils.
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mike909

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2020, 09:14:41 AM »
Still got replies elsewhere from EA's supporters about how much they "had improved players" and how they had so many academy player in the squad last week......as if that really mattered

One poster said Mako wasn't that good when he arrived and all the credit was theirs....not Bristol for whom he played 50 times.....

Lets hope someone is tempted to set out what's in the accounts.....

wasps

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2020, 09:27:27 AM »

There was a report (that I can't find now) this morning following the players open forum in the England training camp, that essentially said all current players should be grateful for what Saracens have done because it's increased everyone's earning potential across the league

It also suggested that no current players have any animosity towards Saracens players themselves because it's a case of "good luck to them".



I have no idea where this came from especially as I understood the open forum was a players only thing without anyone else being involved.


I hate the spin that everyone should be grateful

Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2020, 09:35:39 AM »
Probably came from an EA player!
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wasps

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2020, 09:49:14 PM »

The times appear to have an article saying that Saracens have struck a deal so that they can keep their recent premiership trophies, provided they are not on display


I can't see any of the detail, but it may mean that there's some truth about how accepting relegation came with the deal to keep their trophies

backdoc

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2020, 11:19:28 PM »
I would be happy for Sarries to keep them provided the trophies are painted yellow, to signify the lack of courage to play by the rules.