Always a Wasp

Author Topic: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  (Read 5728 times)

mike909

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 01:46:48 PM »

It's worth remembering that it's the vocal minority that are often heard on message forums


They are all over the Guardian..."is that it"?

We developed all those players (except Barrington, and Billy, and Brad, and Kruis, Koch, Skelton, Wray, Loz, Williams, Maitland - from their Final Team and Mako and others....)

Tervueren

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 01:54:24 PM »
They were lucky to get away with "recklessness" as the finding. I think any reasonable person reading this report would consider the actions deliberate but that they just managed to get away with getting the benefit of the doubt.

RogerE

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 02:03:00 PM »
Was talking, last night, to a South African International Swimming Coach who lives in the UK, and is Sarries fan, because of his SA connections, and a friend of Schalk Brits.

He feels absolutely betrayed by the Saracens ownership/management and would like them all barred from anything to do with sport.


Tervueren

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Neils

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2020, 03:45:21 PM »
So done nowt really wrong.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Tervueren

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2020, 03:50:32 PM »
Just been a bit of a silly Billy. Still, no harm done.

Also, good to know that no-one else is implicated, just a mix-up by Nige.

matelot22

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 03:51:34 PM »
But was it in the Venter interview where he said, "Players would go and see Nigel to see how we could retain them?" Kind of contradicts Nige's view that he was only looking at player welfare beyond their playing career.

Tervueren

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2020, 03:54:41 PM »
But was it in the Venter interview where he said, "Players would go and see Nigel to see how we could retain them?" Kind of contradicts Nige's view that he was only looking at player welfare beyond their playing career.
Heretic, Apostate, Nigel doubter :)

Tervueren

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Shugs

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2020, 06:00:31 PM »
Almost as disappointed by the report concluding its recklessness as the cheating itself. It's clear that it's precision, calculated cheating. They spend up to the cap and then descend into a farcical web of payments to make it up to the players. As for Wray being the only one to know didn't Itoje wonder why he'd been paid to appear at things he wasn't at? Didn't the daughter wonder where her celebrity was? Didn't Itoje wonder why no one else would pay as much for the shares? Was Ashton used to being gifted houses? The whole thing stinks.

Hymenoptera

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2020, 06:30:20 PM »
The salient peice in all this is that its mostly around property deals. Player welfare or after rugby life has nothing to do with, they are not starting a business and need expetise, they are investing in something that will traditionally be a massive nest egg in years to come.
Start up an estate agents yes, don't buy property, its not a business, its a money deposit.

mike909

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2020, 06:53:14 PM »
But surely its all about looking after those academy players.....oh....

Davidabricot

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2020, 10:44:39 PM »
The truth is that the Salarycens is already a good money opportunity. The Championship broadcasting will be re-negociated. International players won't play all the matches, they will recover from their tiring previous years... what will be good both for Eddie Jones and the Lions. With this configuration, I'm afraid that Saracens will keep some power to negotiate, as their situation can have co-benefits for the RFU, and English rugby in general. In our modern world, the truth is written like this: £.

Rugby is a show now. Sending the Saracens in Championship leads to expand this show.

Neils

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2020, 11:17:58 PM »
Laura Lambert who was of the Mail and who was responsible for a number of articles breaking this debacle is now Laura Scott of the Beeb and has the attached article summarising the Report -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51222415
Let me tell you something cucumber

InBetweenWasp

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Re: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2020, 07:59:04 AM »
The salient peice in all this is that its mostly around property deals. Player welfare or after rugby life has nothing to do with, they are not starting a business and need expetise, they are investing in something that will traditionally be a massive nest egg in years to come.
Start up an estate agents yes, don't buy property, its not a business, its a money deposit.

And this is exactly what the report points out.  I had a bit of time on the train yesterday to look at a few sections of the report; namely the descriptions of the breaches for the seasons.  The way the deals were structured was something like this:

- A Joint Venture shell company is setup
- A buy-to-let property is purchased by the company and funded thus:
Nigel Wray (or an associated Saracens person) injects cash (20-30%) to cover the cash deposit required to purchase the property.  In some cases, a further 6-figure some was injected for renovations
- The player (or players) then obtained a buy-to-let mortgage for the remaining 70-80% of the purchase price.  The player, wasn’t required to put a penny in.  Just to guarantee the mortgage payments
- The payments themselves would be covered by the rental yield
- Over time, the mortgage gets paid off effectively by the tenants
- Equity is structured so that upon sale, Wray (or other person stumping up the cash) gets their renovation funds back first, then the rest is split equally between the directors (i.e. 20-30% goes back to Wray and 70-80% goes to the player)
- The player effectively gets a 70-80% lump sum value of a house that they haven’t had to pay a penny for
- The panel concluded that Wray assumed all the risk - The players only risks ‘losing’ value (vs their equity) should house prices fall be over 20-30%

It’s clear that this wasn’t a help-to-buy scheme to help players pay for a house they would otherwise afford in other parts of the country where property isn’t so expensive (except for maybe Ashton, supposedly, who had the owner of Toulon, supposedly, repay the loan back to Wray for the property he help Ashton purchase in the UK shortly before he went to France).  It’s also clear that this isn’t about teaching them the property business for life after rugby.  It was a freebie - Perhaps they’d have the odd month or two where tenants weren’t in place that they might have had to cover the mortgage payments for, or the initial months where they were renovating.  But fundamentally, the player required a tiny amount of capital and risk in order to realise a 6-figure investment pot in a traditionally very stable asset.