Swing Low - Gone?

[Neils]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/18/rfu-may-urge-england-fans-against-singing-swing-low-slavery

As most only know the first line might not be missed much.

[Trevs Big Tackle]

Oh God. Do England fans know any other chants? Just the National Anthem probably. Good job that's not offensive to anyone...

[Hymenoptera]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

[BdeB]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

[Old Geezer]

I shall continue to sing it until they ban white shirts for the England team on the grounds that they are racist and then i shall set fire to myself in the middle of the Twickenham pitch.  These people need to worry about real rscism in this country of which there is an abundance, but a rugby song....?

[Heathen]

There are a few other anthems that might be considered contentious.

This is an absolute load of testicles from the RFU.

[Neils]

There are a few other anthems that might be considerd contentious.

This is absolute load of testicles from the RFU.

I will applaud you!

[RogerE]

I am 100% against discrimination, but am getting frustrated about the "Slavery Guilt Trip" we are being forced on.

Yes it was abhorrent, but slavery was abolished getting on for 200 years ago.

Why should I feel guilty about what some very rich people did at that time?

Should present day Italians  feel guilty about Roman slavery and tear down the remains of the Colosseum because of its association with that period in their history?

Should present day Scandinavians feel guilty about Viking slavery and apologise to almost every other country as far away as Iran? 

Also people forget that in Africa, before the European colonialists, there was inter-Tribe slavery for centuries, and in many cases the Europeans paid other Africans to get them people to become slaves.

Oh and I don't like Swing Low, not because of its context, but because I don't like it in the same way I don't like a lot of modern "music".

[Hymenoptera]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

[Hymenoptera]

I am 100% against discrimination, but am getting frustrated about the "Slavery Guilt Trip" we are being forced on.

Yes it was abhorrent, but slavery was abolished getting on for 200 years ago.

Why should I feel guilty about what some very rich people did at that time?

Should present day Italians  feel guilty about Roman slavery and tear down the remains of the Colosseum because of its association with that period in their history?

Should present day Scandinavians feel guilty about Viking slavery and apologise to almost every other country as far away as Iran? 

Also people forget that in Africa, before the European colonialists, there was inter-Tribe slavery for centuries, and in many cases the Europeans paid other Africans to get them people to become slaves.

Oh and I don't like Swing Low, not because of its context, but because I don't like it in the same way I don't like a lot of modern "music".

This..RogerE nail on head.

[BdeB]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

As it happens I have in my own circles tried to acknowledge historic wrongs just not on a rugby site. The point I was trying to make is not that if you sung Swing low in the past you are a racist, it is now that it has been pointed out that its origins as a rugby song we’re probably racist then to sing it from now on in defiance of that knowledge probably would be a sign of some racism and certainly the absence of any empathy. We might be bored with it but that probably shows we have the luxury of not being affected by it. So disengage all you want but don’t tell people to get over it and move on some don’t have that luxury.

[WonkyWasp]

It isn't really "modern" as it was written in 1860.  I have always enjoyed singing it as a proper full-length  HYMN in church - not just the first verse. I did know that it had originated in the plantations  but  I have always thought of it as a hymn full of  of hope and promise.  I still think of it  as having religious ties but maybe I should widen (and question) my  possibly naïve/innocent/ignorant  views.

[bertywasp]

As I understand it "Swing Low" is a song sung by American slaves as they were trying to escape the South to the North. The "chariots" were the boats that were used to cross any waters. It is a song of hope and a prayer  to gain freedom. This to me seems very different to a statute commemorating wealth obtained from slavery.

[Neils]

From Wikipedia which may of course be completely wrong  -

"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" was written by Wallis Willis, a Choctaw freedman in the old Indian Territory in what is now Choctaw County, near the County seat of Hugo, Oklahoma sometime after 1865. He may have been inspired by the sight of the Red River, by which he was toiling, which reminded him of the Jordan River and of the Prophet Elijah's being taken to heaven by a chariot (2 Kings 2:11). Some sources claim that this song and "Steal Away" (also sung by Willis) had lyrics that referred to the Underground Railroad, the freedom movement that helped black people escape from Southern slavery to the North and Canada.

Alexander Reid, a minister at the Old Spencer Academy, a Choctaw boarding school, heard Willis singing these two songs and transcribed the words and melodies. He sent the music to the Jubilee Singers of Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee. The Jubilee Singers popularized the songs during a tour of the United States and Europe.

In 1939, Nazi Germany's Reich Music Examination Office added the song to a listing of "undesired and harmful" musical works.

The song enjoyed a resurgence during the 1960s Civil Rights struggle and the folk revival; it was performed by a number of artists. Perhaps the most famous performance during this period was that by Joan Baez during the legendary 1969 Woodstock festival.

Oklahoma State Senator Judy Eason McIntyre from Tulsa proposed a bill nominating "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" as the Oklahoma State official gospel song in 2011. The bill was co-sponsored by the Oklahoma State Black Congressional Caucus. Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin signed the bill into law on May 5, 2011, at a ceremony at the Oklahoma Cowboy Hall of Fame; making the song the official Oklahoma State Gospel Song

[Marlow Nick]

If swing low was written by a white slave owner and had lyrics degrading the black community then it should go. But it is written by a black slave and is a positive message so why are we considering wiping the memory of a talented black composer by refusing to sing his song?

This is so confusing!