Swing Low - Gone?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I'd happily support a ban on it if it was black players or committee members saying it was inappropriate.

I find it hard to get behind yet another committee of old white dudes deciding what black people should find offensive.

[BdeB]

It isn't really "modern" as it was written in 1860.  I have always enjoyed singing it as a proper full-length  HYMN in church - not just the first verse. I did know that it had originated in the plantations  but  I have always thought of it as a hymn full of  of hope and promise.  I still think of it  as having religious ties but maybe I should widen (and question) my  possibly naïve/innocent/ignorant  views.

The problem is not that it is a gospel song and still sung in many black majority churches. The problem or non-problem as some see it is that it is fairly well agreed it was first sung as a rugby song in response to Chris Oti scoring a hatrick against Ireland. The feeling being that those who began singing it at Twickenham that day sang a song deeply connected with the emancipation struggle and with connections to slavery because Oti was black.

[Hymenoptera]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

As it happens I have in my own circles tried to acknowledge historic wrongs just not on a rugby site. The point I was trying to make is not that if you sung Swing low in the past you are a racist, it is now that it has been pointed out that its origins as a rugby song we’re probably racist then to sing it from now on in defiance of that knowledge probably would be a sign of some racism and certainly the absence of any empathy. We might be bored with it but that probably shows we have the luxury of not being affected by it. So disengage all you want but don’t tell people to get over it and move on some don’t have that luxury.

Your sermon is getting in the way of the facts, suggest you re-read it.
That wasn't the 'point' you were making at all, you were attempting sarcasm from up on your perch, offering nothing but a righteous preach to someone who isn't as emotionally connected as you an I didn't tell anyone to move on or get over it, I asked if I was the only one getting bored of it.

[Hymenoptera]

I'd happily support a ban on it if it was black players or committee members saying it was inappropriate.

I find it hard to get behind yet another committee of old white dudes deciding what black people should find offensive.

I have gone to matches with my black friends belting it out...they must be some kind of new racist, I'll let bdeB educate me on it.

[BdeB]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

As it happens I have in my own circles tried to acknowledge historic wrongs just not on a rugby site. The point I was trying to make is not that if you sung Swing low in the past you are a racist, it is now that it has been pointed out that its origins as a rugby song we’re probably racist then to sing it from now on in defiance of that knowledge probably would be a sign of some racism and certainly the absence of any empathy. We might be bored with it but that probably shows we have the luxury of not being affected by it. So disengage all you want but don’t tell people to get over it and move on some don’t have that luxury.

Your sermon is getting in the way of the facts, suggest you re-read it.
That wasn't the 'point' you were making at all, you were attempting sarcasm from up on your perch, offering nothing but a righteous preach to someone who isn't as emotionally connected as you an I didn't tell anyone to move on or get over it, I asked if I was the only one getting bored of it.

You can use sarcasm and also make a point and I do think it is telling if someone is vocal about being ‘bored’ on a subject of injustice. But I am grateful for your recognition of my preaching it is what I do professionally.
On a serious note I would recommend to everyone if you haven’t already to read the article by our own Simon McIntyre about the prejudice he has faced in rugby which is sadly evident in the racist abuse another of our own Paulo Odogwu has received on social media from some who claim to be Wasps supporters.

[Rossm]

What I've never been able to understand is why English rugby supporters adopted the song in the first place. But I'm a Scot so what do I know

[Hymenoptera]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

As it happens I have in my own circles tried to acknowledge historic wrongs just not on a rugby site. The point I was trying to make is not that if you sung Swing low in the past you are a racist, it is now that it has been pointed out that its origins as a rugby song we’re probably racist then to sing it from now on in defiance of that knowledge probably would be a sign of some racism and certainly the absence of any empathy. We might be bored with it but that probably shows we have the luxury of not being affected by it. So disengage all you want but don’t tell people to get over it and move on some don’t have that luxury.

Your sermon is getting in the way of the facts, suggest you re-read it.
That wasn't the 'point' you were making at all, you were attempting sarcasm from up on your perch, offering nothing but a righteous preach to someone who isn't as emotionally connected as you an I didn't tell anyone to move on or get over it, I asked if I was the only one getting bored of it.

You can use sarcasm and also make a point and I do think it is telling if someone is vocal about being ‘bored’ on a subject of injustice. But I am grateful for your recognition of my preaching it is what I do professionally.
On a serious note I would recommend to everyone if you haven’t already to read the article by our own Simon McIntyre about the prejudice he has faced in rugby which is sadly evident in the racist abuse another of our own Paulo Odogwu has received on social media from some who claim to be Wasps supporters.

Given you weren't making a point, just being self righteous and sanctimonious, there is a clear opportunity to improve in your professional career and also realise that if someone wants to be preached to, they can reach out for one of your sermons of there own volition.

[BdeB]

Am I the only one that is beyond bored with this whole situation...its just too much now.

You are right centuries ingrained racism in our culture is too much. I’m not sure we get to say we are bored or it’s too much around issues of injustice that other people suffer.

Were you as vocal about historic wrongs before others raised it or just found your voice now?
The fact its history and not today is the whole point isn't it, the fact that society has moved on. What's ok today wont be in 30 years. I watched Only Fools and Horses, am I a racist to you? I never sung swing low because of any racist connotation, I bet not one person that did sing it even blinked at it, i know i didn't, nor did I walk past any statue and salute it. History can exist and remain history without everything being stripped back.
So thanks for your input but I'll stick to my statement.

As it happens I have in my own circles tried to acknowledge historic wrongs just not on a rugby site. The point I was trying to make is not that if you sung Swing low in the past you are a racist, it is now that it has been pointed out that its origins as a rugby song we’re probably racist then to sing it from now on in defiance of that knowledge probably would be a sign of some racism and certainly the absence of any empathy. We might be bored with it but that probably shows we have the luxury of not being affected by it. So disengage all you want but don’t tell people to get over it and move on some don’t have that luxury.

Your sermon is getting in the way of the facts, suggest you re-read it.
That wasn't the 'point' you were making at all, you were attempting sarcasm from up on your perch, offering nothing but a righteous preach to someone who isn't as emotionally connected as you an I didn't tell anyone to move on or get over it, I asked if I was the only one getting bored of it.

You can use sarcasm and also make a point and I do think it is telling if someone is vocal about being ‘bored’ on a subject of injustice. But I am grateful for your recognition of my preaching it is what I do professionally.
On a serious note I would recommend to everyone if you haven’t already to read the article by our own Simon McIntyre about the prejudice he has faced in rugby which is sadly evident in the racist abuse another of our own Paulo Odogwu has received on social media from some who claim to be Wasps supporters.

Given you weren't making a point, just being self righteous and sanctimonious, there is a clear opportunity to improve in your professional career and also realise that if someone wants to be preached to, they can reach out for one of your sermons of there own volition.

Thank you I will take your feedback on board. Of course declaring “its just too much now” is preaching in its own way. I can also assure you I was most making a point (sanctimonious and self-righteous though it might have been) and that is that no one should every get bored with the presence of injustice in the world, which I will presume you would agree with. God bless.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Please don't make me close this thread.

How about we agree racism exists and is bad. Then we can all choose how to act based on our individual circumstances.

[BdeB]

Please don't make me close this thread.

How about we agree racism exists and is bad. Then we can all choose how to act based on our individual circumstances.

👍

[WonkyWasp]

Ditto

[coddy]

Are there any known documentation highlighting black people taking offence at this song?

[BG]

What I've never been able to understand is why English rugby supporters adopted the song in the first place. But I'm a Scot so what do I know

I wondered the same thing but BdeB offers an explanation above, which I'd never heard or read of before so I'm not sure if that is fact

I suspect 99% of a current twickers crowd wouldn't be aware of BdB's explanation either.. a large proportion probably wouldn't even be aware of what they were singing as most only seem to know the 1st verse

[Skippy]

I’d feel a lot more informed if someone went and asked Martin Offiah and Chris Oti for their views. As someone who is a WASP (as well as a Wasps fan), this is not a perspective that I would lay claim to having and I certainly have no clue as to whether I should or should not be taking offence on someone else’s behalf.

If Swing Low does disappear, it will present quite conundrum as to what the Irish, Scots and Welsh will request in song for us to stick up our jacksies.

Ross M asked why we adopted the song in the first place. Like the other home nations, we needed something other than the National Anthem and this probably happened along at the right time. I guess we should count ourselves fortunate that a wandering hippy didn’t pen some dirge about flowers of England back in the ‘60s.

[backdoc]

Tom Varndell has been interviewed saying he has no wish to rename Colston School [he is an old boy] because of the good that has come out of the place.

His glass is half-full.