Swing Low - Gone?

[Neils]

I’d feel a lot more informed if someone went and asked Martin Offiah and Chris Oti for their views. As someone who is a WASP (as well as a Wasps fan), this is not a perspective that I would lay claim to having and I certainly have no clue as to whether I should or should not be taking offence on someone else’s behalf.

If Swing Low does disappear, it will present quite conundrum as to what the Irish, Scots and Welsh will request in song for us to stick up our jacksies.

Ross M asked why we adopted the song in the first place. Like the other home nations, we needed something other than the National Anthem and this probably happened along at the right time. I guess we should count ourselves fortunate that a wandering hippy didn’t pen some dirge about flowers of England back in the ‘60s.

I actually take great exception to you calling my old friend Roy Williamson "a wandering hippy". He was very talented and taken from us too soon. Also he wasn't a bad rugby player.

[RogerE]

Was a great Corries fan back then.

Always find it amusing that F.o.S., when played at Murrayfield, has a bagpipe accompaniment when Roy, himself, said it should only be played using a Northumbrian pipe, as the bagpipe doesn't have the correct note range

[Neils]

Was a great Corries fan back then.

Always find it amusing that F.o.S., when played at Murrayfield, has a bagpipe accompaniment when Roy, himself, said it should only be played using a Northumbrian pipe, as the bagpipe doesn't have the correct note range

Yes anything but conventional instrumentation. That actually made an upswing in Northumbrian pipe interest in Edinburgh. For a while it made Billy Pigg a celebrity. Still got his Border Minstrel on LP.
Doesn't really matter at Murrayfield as it soon gets swamped.

[Skippy]

Neils — I rather see how that’s come across after a fresh reading. Poor choice of words on my part — rather than a reference to Roy Williamson, I was rather clumsily attempting to suggest in jest that had England wanted to choose a flower-related song from the sixties, we’d have had to resort to wandering hippies.

Anyway as offence is always the result of the way something is perceived, rather than intended, I apologise unreservedly. Sorry.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I’d feel a lot more informed if someone went and asked Martin Offiah and Chris Oti for their views. As someone who is a WASP (as well as a Wasps fan), this is not a perspective that I would lay claim to having and I certainly have no clue as to whether I should or should not be taking offence on someone else’s behalf.

If Swing Low does disappear, it will present quite conundrum as to what the Irish, Scots and Welsh will request in song for us to stick up our jacksies.

Ross M asked why we adopted the song in the first place. Like the other home nations, we needed something other than the National Anthem and this probably happened along at the right time. I guess we should count ourselves fortunate that a wandering hippy didn’t pen some dirge about flowers of England back in the ‘60s.

Offiah was on Talk Radio saying he had no issue with the song and that it should continue being sung. He DID want to see change in attitudes to bring equality where it clearly is not at present. I DO recall singing the song back in the mid 70s on the bus back from matches (if we had won, which mostly we did).

[Skippy]

If Chris Oti is of a similar view, then RFU might have to decide that there’s nothing to see here and move on. It’s beginning to look like they have had a quick hunt round for something high profile so it can look like they are doing something. Perhaps they might like to turn their attention to doing something worthwhile regardless of its profile. Maybe start by asking the views of current and ex players who have affected by this sort of thing. They’re probably brimming with ideas. This is not something that should be left to white old farts.

[Shugs]

The problem with airbrushing history is that you can't then learn from it. If what it is upsets us that's no bad thing - it means we're less likely to repeat it.

[coddy]

The problem with airbrushing history is that you can't then learn from it. If what it is upsets us that's no bad thing - it means we're less likely to repeat it.

Or alternatively and far more likely is that it normalises racism and in the case of statues not only normalises racists but reveres them.

[Shugs]

The problem with airbrushing history is that you can't then learn from it. If what it is upsets us that's no bad thing - it means we're less likely to repeat it.

Or alternatively and far more likely is that it normalises racism and in the case of statues not only normalises racists but reveres them.

No statue will make me revere a racist - I can't abide it in any form. History can't normalise it if we don't want it to - that's the challenge.

[westwaleswasp]

I used to sing swing low to my daughter when she was small, all the verses.
I am very aware of its roots. I am also aware that it is sung as a Christian hymn in churches today.

Is the issue that it has been culturally appropriated or that was a spiritual slave song? The origins of it coming to rugby must surely be nebulous, or difficult to prove. Surely what matters is - is it offensive to be sung now as it is, regardless of who first sung it at a rugby match and why?

[wycombewasp]

Amazing Grace is also a christian hymn, and that was written by the slave trader John Newton, its been very well recorded by numerous artists and I believe sung at a certain funeral in America very recently.   

[BdeB]

Amazing Grace is also a christian hymn, and that was written by the slave trader John Newton, its been very well recorded by numerous artists and I believe sung at a certain funeral in America very recently.   

‘Former’ slave trader. John Newton had a conversion experience mid-Atlantic and renounced the slave trade becoming a prominent abolitionist. Amazing grace was written later to reflect his conversion: “Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me”

[wycombewasp]

Yes John Newton had a conversion during a very bad storm off the coast of Donegal in 1747/8 but that did not stop him slaving, he went on to become the captain of a slave ship only giving up slaving in 1754 after suffering a severe stroke, so not his christian values then, Avery godly man indeed.

[BG]

Amazing Grace is also a christian hymn, and that was written by the slave trader John Newton, its been very well recorded by numerous artists and I believe sung at a certain funeral in America very recently.   

‘Former’ slave trader. John Newton had a conversion experience mid-Atlantic and renounced the slave trade becoming a prominent abolitionist. Amazing grace was written later to reflect his conversion: “Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me”

I was going to question the need to add "former" as most people would interpret slave trader as being historical.. but human trafficking still exists.. just the methods of transport have changed.. the reasons for it haven't.. money

[BdeB]

Yes John Newton had a conversion during a very bad storm off the coast of Donegal in 1747/8 but that did not stop him slaving, he went on to become the captain of a slave ship only giving up slaving in 1754 after suffering a severe stroke, so not his christian values then, Avery godly man indeed.

Thank you for adding more detail You are right in that he himself says his conversion was not immediate but gradual having started with that first experience mid Atlantic and actually speaks of his conversion later. However he did renounce the slave trade later and he did become an prominent abolitionist writing the hymn towards the end of his life. His hymn confesses to him not being a godly man, a wretch and in need of salvation, But is also testifies that his life was changed. Grace is a wonderful attribute that allows someone not to be written off for attitudes that they might once have held or for the person they might once have been at one point in their life. We could do with more grace around nowadays.