Swing Low - Gone?

[wycombewasp]

my point is that its ok for African Americans to sing a song written by a white slaver who only gave up slaving because of ill health but its not ok to sing a song written by an ex slave the meaning of which is not known as fact only opinion, people seeing what they want to see for there own agenda. 

[welsh wasp]

Wycombe: We always see things from our own agenda and we sometimes agree and sometimes not.
I am not sure why the RFU has decided to address the singing of Swing Low. If nothing else, it is unlikely to stop people doing so.
They could instead consider whether they need to learn to look at their own organisation and how representative it is. An investigation by Telegraph Sport has found:
- Just three per cent of board members of taxpayer-funded national governing bodies (NGBs) are black, according to the most recent published data.
- 64 per cent of funded NGBs have no Black And Minority Ethnic (BAME) board members at all.
- Some of the country’s biggest funded and unfunded sports bodies have only one black board member between them.
- No Premier League club and virtually no English Football League club has a black owner, chairman or chief executive.
The fact the Football Association, Rugby Football Union, England and Wales Cricket Board, Lawn Tennis Association, England Golf, UK Athletics and British Cycling had one black board member between them showed the need for much firmer action.

I think Maggie Alphonsi is the only BAME representative in the RFU's hierarchy of committees. I don't know about the WRU before anyone comments but I guess it is unlikely to be very different. Would we prefer the RFU to bother with Swing Low or address a much more substantial issue?

To widen the issue of representation, a joint report from Sport England and UK Support identified that there is
on average  5% BAME board members identified across their membership. Only 5% (29) of board members declared or consider themselves to have a disability, compared to around 22% in the wider UK population; 96% of board members reported having no disability. 3% of board members identified as being openly LGBT+. This is slightly above the national average for the UK population; 2% of UK residents identify as LGBT+, although this rises to 4% among 16 to 24 year olds. Sports boards are more likely than the wider population to have attended private schools and prestigious universities. Olympic and Paralympic sports boards also have a higher than average proportion of Oxbridge board members.

Those figures show that most bodies, and it applies on company boards too, fail to represent the different sections of UK society. Should we be concerned about that?

I was disappointed that an early contributor to this thread  said he was getting frustrated by the "Slavery Guilt Trip" and that other nationalities and African groups also profited from slavery? Is that a reason to get frustrated? A number of large businesses in this country, particularly financial ones, have recognised and apologised in recent days for how they benefited from the slave trade. The British Empire as a whole did very well from the slave trade and from exploiting other races, although most people then living in this country probably did not. There have also been recent court cases and jail sentences because of slavery in this country in the last year or so. Largely involving immigrants, legal & illegal, and people with learning disabilities.

And it worth saying that the issue of Black Lives Matter has arisen to the forefront because of the murder of George Floyd in the US and the disproportionate numbers of BAME people, particularly NHS and care home staff, who have died in the last few months. That has all happened this year - and it has revived the issue of, particularly, statues, mostly of men, who profited from slavery and the exploitation of people of other races. Should we still honour them?

I worked in different industries for all my career. I am aware that the first legislation against racial discrimination came into force in 1965. And the first legislation seeking equal pay for women came into law in 1970. Significant discrimination still exists and women are still a long way from equal pay.

Another contributor here commented that he was aware of opinions he might have held and TV programmes he watched a couple of decades ago were no longer acceptable. We might benefit from reflecting about what actions we accept now might be seen as unacceptable in 2040.

With apologies for the length of this contribution.

[BG]

Yes John Newton had a conversion during a very bad storm off the coast of Donegal in 1747/8 but that did not stop him slaving, he went on to become the captain of a slave ship only giving up slaving in 1754 after suffering a severe stroke, so not his christian values then, Avery godly man indeed.

Thank you for adding more detail You are right in that he himself says his conversion was not immediate but gradual having started with that first experience mid Atlantic and actually speaks of his conversion later. However he did renounce the slave trade later and he did become an prominent abolitionist writing the hymn towards the end of his life. His hymn confesses to him not being a godly man, a wretch and in need of salvation, But is also testifies that his life was changed. Grace is a wonderful attribute that allows someone not to be written off for attitudes that they might once have held or for the person they might once have been at one point in their life. We could do with more grace around nowadays.

I don't mind learning something new.

"in need of salvation, But is also"

I'm old school.. don't use capital letters after a comma.. I'm sure someone can tell me why.

I'm guessing a new sentence begins, rather than a continuation of a sentence?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Wycombe: We always see things from our own agenda and we sometimes agree and sometimes not.
I am not sure why the RFU has decided to address the singing of Swing Low. If nothing else, it is unlikely to stop people doing so.
They could instead consider whether they need to learn to look at their own organisation and how representative it is. An investigation by Telegraph Sport has found:
- Just three per cent of board members of taxpayer-funded national governing bodies (NGBs) are black, according to the most recent published data.
- 64 per cent of funded NGBs have no Black And Minority Ethnic (BAME) board members at all.
- Some of the country’s biggest funded and unfunded sports bodies have only one black board member between them.
- No Premier League club and virtually no English Football League club has a black owner, chairman or chief executive.
The fact the Football Association, Rugby Football Union, England and Wales Cricket Board, Lawn Tennis Association, England Golf, UK Athletics and British Cycling had one black board member between them showed the need for much firmer action.

I think Maggie Alphonsi is the only BAME representative in the RFU's hierarchy of committees. I don't know about the WRU before anyone comments but I guess it is unlikely to be very different. Would we prefer the RFU to bother with Swing Low or address a much more substantial issue?

To widen the issue of representation, a joint report from Sport England and UK Support identified that there is
on average  5% BAME board members identified across their membership. Only 5% (29) of board members declared or consider themselves to have a disability, compared to around 22% in the wider UK population; 96% of board members reported having no disability. 3% of board members identified as being openly LGBT+. This is slightly above the national average for the UK population; 2% of UK residents identify as LGBT+, although this rises to 4% among 16 to 24 year olds. Sports boards are more likely than the wider population to have attended private schools and prestigious universities. Olympic and Paralympic sports boards also have a higher than average proportion of Oxbridge board members.

Those figures show that most bodies, and it applies on company boards too, fail to represent the different sections of UK society. Should we be concerned about that?

I was disappointed that an early contributor to this thread  said he was getting frustrated by the "Slavery Guilt Trip" and that other nationalities and African groups also profited from slavery? Is that a reason to get frustrated? A number of large businesses in this country, particularly financial ones, have recognised and apologised in recent days for how they benefited from the slave trade. The British Empire as a whole did very well from the slave trade and from exploiting other races, although most people then living in this country probably did not. There have also been recent court cases and jail sentences because of slavery in this country in the last year or so. Largely involving immigrants, legal & illegal, and people with learning disabilities.

And it worth saying that the issue of Black Lives Matter has arisen to the forefront because of the murder of George Floyd in the US and the disproportionate numbers of BAME people, particularly NHS and care home staff, who have died in the last few months. That has all happened this year - and it has revived the issue of, particularly, statues, mostly of men, who profited from slavery and the exploitation of people of other races. Should we still honour them?

I worked in different industries for all my career. I am aware that the first legislation against racial discrimination came into force in 1965. And the first legislation seeking equal pay for women came into law in 1970. Significant discrimination still exists and women are still a long way from equal pay.

Another contributor here commented that he was aware of opinions he might have held and TV programmes he watched a couple of decades ago were no longer acceptable. We might benefit from reflecting about what actions we accept now might be seen as unacceptable in 2040.

With apologies for the length of this contribution.

Well said!

[BdeB]

Yes John Newton had a conversion during a very bad storm off the coast of Donegal in 1747/8 but that did not stop him slaving, he went on to become the captain of a slave ship only giving up slaving in 1754 after suffering a severe stroke, so not his christian values then, Avery godly man indeed.

Thank you for adding more detail You are right in that he himself says his conversion was not immediate but gradual having started with that first experience mid Atlantic and actually speaks of his conversion later. However he did renounce the slave trade later and he did become an prominent abolitionist writing the hymn towards the end of his life. His hymn confesses to him not being a godly man, a wretch and in need of salvation, But is also testifies that his life was changed. Grace is a wonderful attribute that allows someone not to be written off for attitudes that they might once have held or for the person they might once have been at one point in their life. We could do with more grace around nowadays.

I don't mind learning something new.

"in need of salvation, But is also"

I'm old school.. don't use capital letters after a comma.. I'm sure someone can tell me why.

I'm guessing a new sentence begins, rather than a continuation of a sentence?

Thanks BG