Exeter supporters petition for club to drop 'racist' Native American branding.

[Hymenoptera]

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

Anything in particluar you dispute?

Nothing, I merely asked you a direct question as to how you substantiate that statement..so please.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

Anything in particluar you dispute?

Nothing, I merely asked you a direct question as to how you substantiate that statement..so please.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/

[RBB]

The Chiefs logo and associated material, branding etc. is clearly cultural appropriation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation. The name Chiefs itself is not racist, however the imagery links to the leader of a Native American tribal community is nonsense, and in the spirit of respect to that particular community should be dropped, it is after all 2020. As should teams such as Washington Redskins (the suffix is a pejorative term anyway), Atlanta Braves have softened their imagery but it still portrays a Tomahawk.

What harm can changing the logo and the rest of the branding do, the simple answer is none. It isn't even a historical association but was dreamed up in 1999. I think they need to get on with it.

[Hymenoptera]

Yes, i figured you would just provide a widely available link to stats providing with no source data other than a yes/no answer and doesn't reflect society at all, just UK.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Yes, i figured you would just provide a widely available link to stats providing with no source data other than a yes/no answer and doesn't reflect society at all, just UK.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

So what do those stats tell us?

[Chilham]

... Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers...

Want to lend them your bootstraps?

[matelot22]

When the BLM protests started, the black police officer I mentioned previously had a rant on Facebook, speaking out against BAME victim complex. He was born on a council estate in Manchester, his post was along the lines of "Black kids get bullied at school. I was bullied, but no more than any other kid and when you start hitting back bullies soon leave you alone. Black kids don't do well at school. I did. Black kids don't do the 11+ I did. Black kids don't get the same chances that white kids do. I joined the forces under the same selection criteria as white kids. Black kids don't stay in the forces. I did. Black kids don't get promoted. I did. Black kids don't join the police. I did" And so it went, I'm sure you get the drift.

As for the correlation between poverty and crime, West Devon and Cornwall are very poor areas, but overall fairly low in crime. I'd agree poverty plays some part, but I wouldn't overstate that and put it more down to mentality.

[Hymenoptera]

They tell us nothing because there is no source data supporting the results data and as such they belong in a this thread.
Ask four people why they don't eat Greggs sausage rolls.
1 doesn't like the taste.
1 doesn't like to look.
1 doesn't eat meat.
1 is pastry intolerant.
Same result for a multitude of reasons, but I know the reasons. All you know is less % of Ethnics own property and are using that in supporting your narrative.
Baseless stats can be used to support any narrative you see fit.
Anyway, I'm going to bow out of future contributions on this thread now, not sure why I even bit, its a rabbit hole thread and I come here for rugby chat, I can pick up race opinion via a million other portals if I see fit.
Peace out.

[matelot22]

They tell us nothing because there is no source data supporting the results data and as such they belong in a this thread.
Ask four people why they don't eat Greggs sausage rolls.
1 doesn't like the taste.
1 doesn't like to look.
1 doesn't eat meat.
1 is pastry intolerant.
Same result for a multitude of reasons, but I know the reasons. All you know is less % of Ethnics own property and are using that in supporting your narrative.
Baseless stats can be used to support any narrative you see fit.
Anyway, I'm going to bow out of future contributions on this thread now, not sure why I even bit, its a rabbit hole thread and I come here for rugby chat, I can pick up race opinion via a million other portals if I see fit.
Peace out.

I'm going to follow suit.

I would just like to add one final observation though. I think it speaks volumes about the members of this forum that everyone has remained level headed on this thread, I appreciate that it's an emotive topic at the best of times, but there's been no hysteria or anyone screaming "racist" at anyone. I'm impressed that sensible and calm discussion can still take place on the internet, thanks all.

[WonkyWasp]

Dear Matelot and Hymenoptra, please do not leave. I (and many others, I think) enjoy your contributions and your rugby knowledge  very much, and also your humour; if you leave you will be greatly missed.  I - for one - like you both  and would certainly miss you a lot.  A spat over differences of any sort is not worth throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Just let it drain away, and avoid like topics -  should they arise again.  Believe me, life is far far too short.  Move on, yes, but don't go away.  (I hope this doesn't read 'all Pollyann-ish')   

[RogerE]

I got the impression they would be leaving this thread, not the board.

[WonkyWasp]

I was hoping that was the case. Thanks Roger. 

[Willie]

I wonder if the 'BAME victim complex' also accounts for the disproportionately high numbers of BAME deaths from Covid-19, or the higher all-cause mortality rate in previous years. Perhaps people of certain skin colours just aren't trying hard enough to survive. 

.

[DGP Wasp]

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives. 

Really? These statistics (source not quoted) which often get trotted out to support this point of view presumably are for large, inner cities. I live in Hastings and I can categorically state that the majority of crime locally is committed by white people.

Source: Metropolitan Police statistics which are freely available and easy enough to look up.  The largest of large, inner cities.   Which is where the problems of violent crime of this nature are most prevalent.  To introduce Hastings with 1.1% black population against London's 13.3%, not to mention a vastly different age demographic (Source: 2011 census) into a debate about violent crime among young black men is pointless.  I'm sure there would be a huge disparity in overall stop and search figures between the Met and Sussex police, but life's too short for me to be looking that up.

[DGP Wasp]

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

It's very easy to see two things and assume one causes the other, while they may both be results of a separate unknown causative factor.

I suspect, (and I accept that I do not have a source to back this up) that poverty causes violent crime, and being black makes you more likely to live in poverty.  That if you compare crime figures for black vs white people in the same income brackets the figures would not be so disparate.

The fact is that there is an alarming level of violent crime committed by and towards black people in inner cities,  regardless of cause and effect based on standard of living which is very difficult to establish and not a debate I want to get drawn in to.  Among the most effective tools the police have at their disposal to combat this scourge is stop and search, and while a particular profile based on age, gender and race is much more likely to commit such crimes then it is logical that police forces should keep that in mind when deciding who to stop and search.  A man is over 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched by the Met than a woman (source:  Met Police).  Is that sexist?  No, it's just intelligence based policing.