Training Centre

[WussFan]

Gents, you asked for some feedback on what the locals really think which I think Jose has given.

Full disclosure - I’m a Worcester fan - not a fan of Wasps.

I’m from local area and I know people who used the facility before Wasps forced the closure. That closure has meant loss of a local amenity and forced the relocation of a number of clubs. It is not fact that Wasps are the only alternative and the access offered has gone from zero to minimal giving on a grudging basis to get planning.

Wasps bring nothing to the local area in Henley other than the loss of an amenity. The way they have handled this is perceived locally as underhand and dishonest.

You then have to view that in context of Wasps trying to take over the Higgs centre and then the messing around at Old Leamingtonians which foundered on sharing and access.

Everyone understands that Wasps want a training facility but given the space in Warwickshire and the huge facility at the Ricoh it’s puzzling as to why Wasps can’t sort themselves out without removing local facilities.

The school over the road has virtually no facilities, the sports hall is tiny and there is no gym. Having tried to find capacity for kids training I can testify that around here they are hard to come by.

This is absolutely not about nimbys or CCFC fans with an axe to grind. It’s local people pissed off with the attitude and behaviour of both Wasps and their local elected representatives. They weren’t opponents of Wasps at the outset - its the conduct of Wasps that has caused that.

Perhaps a place to start would be rather than taking as fact what you think you know, try and see it from the perspective of the locals who are losing a valuable local facility.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Hi Wussfan,

Thanks for posting, its appreciated.

Do locals believe the facility was perfectly viable and it is Wasps that have forced it to close?

[WussFan]

Yes. And they have proved they have funding to buy and run it.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Were they not given an opportunity to buy it?

I'm genuinely interested, I'm not trying to be argumentative.

[WussFan]

It would seem not. If you research the history and look through the Facebook group it’s very easy to understand why people are unhappy.

Had Wasps approached this constructively rather than putting out dishonest PR then it could have been different. The initial view was that discounted tickets amounted to a contribution and only very limited access has now been offered under some duress. Given that the site was deliberately closed and many users forced out - the site has since sat idle - perhaps you can appreciate people’s anger.

Most other clubs have built their own facility. Wasps are getting a reputation in the midlands for stepping on others for their own purposes.

[BG]

Henley in Arden (no-where near the Thames) strikes me as a place that have influential lurkers in the background (and yes.. I'm local). If the residents don't want Wasps there then so be it. I'm not sure they can stop a viable economic decision that's out of their hands though (that's not just Wasps but other alternatives I'm guessing its classed as a brown  site so any developer for housing can't claim vat back).

They did allow for a very dissapointing golf course to be constructed not far from the centre of the town so some developements do go ahead.

I'm sure whoever takes on the site will have to take on Strat Council's "community angle".. be that housing.. a chemical industrial plant or a butterfly farm.

[WussFan]

Not sure what point you are making BG.

It’s not the case that Wasps are the only people who can save a doomed site. That’s not what is happening here and it’s not reasonable to throw derogatory comments at local residents who are unhappy at losing local facilities to a rugby club who seem to have no regard.

Wasps could have improved the site, given fair access to all and in the process gained some more fans and done some valuable community work.

If they wanted something private for their own purposes that’s fine, but go build it yourselves! Not like there isn’t loads of space at the Ricoh.

[baldpaul101]

Wuss Fan, appreciate your posting.

one question. you say wasps forced the closure of the site. How did this occur if it was a busy bustling local amenity.
Not trying to score points just wanting to understand whats going on.

[WussFan]

Shortly after the sale was agreed notice was given to existing members and users. The site has then sat out of use.

Presumably the motivation was to reduce opposition or to weaken the case for the existing users. I can’t see any other logic given the need for planning permission which was submitted after the site was closed.

[baldpaul101]

OK so it was sold, then closed.

What was the reason for the owners wanting to sell it?

[NellyWellyWaspy]

As with BG, I am not far from Henley, and often go there (some nice shops) and to Alcester, down the road. But, that isn't the point. The centre, like all community 'leisure' centres, is viable only with subsidy. Throughout Warwickshire the county has sought to close almost all except the biggest, and has handed the running of most (if not all) over to Everyone Active, a 'non-profit' subsidiary of Sports and Leisure Management Ltd, themselves a subsidiary of Castle View International Holdings Limited. One of those big conglomerate concerns who take over day to day provision of services at cut rates, and who offer low wages and use very dubious zero hours contracts (like, be on site all day - or near at hand - and we will pay you only for the time we actually use you).

Most of the Secondary Schools have sub-contracted their sports facilities to them also.

But, even with such dubious accounting, once the College closed, it was inevitable that the Leisure Centre would also, as it was cross-subsidised by money from the college. The county wanted/needed to reap a lot of cash.

I have no doubt that the residents could have raised some cash to buy the site, but nowhere near what a builder would have offered for the land. That the county sold to Wasps is what it is. Do you think Wasps went driving round the county looking for likely, purpose built sites? I doubt it. More likely an agent(or the county itself) approached them.

The OL's deal fell through because Wasps would not own the land, and thus could not get a loan. Simple finance. The same problem dogged the Allard Way 'deal'. And no, there is no land near the Ricoh that IS suitable and available.

Most of the players have chosen to live in South Warwickshire (and who can blame them?). For them the OLs deal would have been perfect. Over time, I think many will move close to the training ground. As I pointed out some time ago, I think Henley is actually close to Sixways then the Ricoh. It is surely slap bang in the middle of Worcester's traditional recruiting area.

As I said before, those opposed to Wasps owning the site refuse to believe that, come what may, the site was never going to remain open to the public access it had before. But, that is a sad truth. The choice, really, was; Wasps OR housing. Yes, of course the county kicked everyone out as soon as the deal was announced. They had no choice. The same would have happened had a builder bought the land.

And, if anybody tells me otherwise, I will be calling them out on that.

If, as those concerned believe, next Wednesday sees the planning application approved, then that will be that, unless the locals intend a pitchfork at dawn protest every day. Why oppose the inevitable, why not try to influence it? Persuade Wasps to add more facilities. Did Wasps buy all the pitches? Could they buy more land, build more pitches, build more changing rooms, more gym space? They could you know. But not if the locals don't want to work with them.

[WussFan]

It was owned by Warwickshire College and at some point I believe they stopped using the site for college activities. No one knows what prompted them to divest other than they have been unable to substantiate their assertion it was offered to anyone other than Wasps who by coincidence have an exec on the college’s governing body.

The site had a community access condition in its planning and was well used by the local community. The sports facilities at Henley High, the school across the road, are also relatively poor especially by comparison to other local secondaries such as Aylesford, Studley, Stratford High and KES.

The sports alliance who are disputing the planning permission have claimed they have proof of funds to buy and run, but have never been given the option.

[WussFan]

Sorry NellyWelly but you are creating a narrative that is unsubstantiated. You are making assertions about the viability of the site that aren’t supported. There is no evidence that WCG were looking to sell to anyone or actively looking to divest.

There is plenty of land at the Ricoh. Convert the pitch to a 4G as Worcester have done and build a state of the art gym in the large Ricoh complex.

As for the players settling in Leamington, which btw is a hideous drive in rush hour to Henley, are you saying Cov is beneath the players? If you want to be a Cov side, play and train in Cov.

Even getting past all of that why is it necessary for Wasps to destroy a local facility and give poor access? Surely if community was of interest to them they’d want to do this - not have to be pressed into minimal access.

Finally if the site had planning permission for housing or was likely to achieve it, then it would be worth very substantially more than either Wasps are paying or the locals would be able to. It hasn’t got planning and would be unlikely to get it for housing.

There are few if any redeeming features for Wasps behaviour on this I’m afraid. Were it my team trampling all over the locals I’d be less than happy. Wasps seem to have achieved the impossible and made themselves less popular than SISU in these parts - which is some accomplishment.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

There is plenty of land at the Ricoh.

No, there isn't. There is lots of waste land, most of it useless except for carparking or buildings. It was an old gas works.

Convert the pitch to a 4G as Worcester have done

Wasps cannot do that as they wish to have CCFC back, and there will likely come the point where a 4G pitch is not possible as the Football rules don't allow it in certain leagues. I suspect that a time will come, quite soon, that 4G pitches for rugby will be banned, if not for sports in general (as they have been in other countries, like the Netherlands), as they will come to be recognised as inherently unhealthy/unsafe. Wasps have only just recently renewed the 5G pitch at great cost anyway.

As for the players settling in Leamington, which btw is a hideous drive in rush hour to Henley, are you saying Cov is beneath the players? If you want to be a Cov side, play and train in Cov.

Are you saying that all Worcester players live in Worcester, or all Sale players live in Salford, or all Leicester players live in Leicester? That is absurd. Some of the Wasps players do live in Coventry. It wouldn't surprise me if many players moved more local to where the training ground would be.

Even getting past all of that why is it necessary for Wasps to destroy a local facility and give poor access?

I doubt that Wasps have said this was their intent. You assume/infer it is. It could work out very differently.

Finally if the site had planning permission for housing or was likely to achieve it, then it would be worth very substantially more than either Wasps are paying or the locals would be able to. It hasn’t got planning and would be unlikely to get it for housing.

I wouldn't put money on any land never getting such permission.

But, this discussion is an exact reflection of the public one. Those who don't want it to happen, and, to support their wishes, paint Wasps as the villain. There is no villain on either side. But, those who oppose this will believe they are/were right until the day after they die in many years time. That is what our 'free' society is about. We allow land owning. We allow profit, advertising and so many other things.

The land my house is on was good quality farm land, 'owned' by the Government since they seized it in WW2. It would never be built on either. Well, except for all these houses. and some of the people in these houses are now campaigning to stop the next development.

Be thankful you have a secondary school in Henley, don't complain about its facilities, campaign and fund better ones. The last school I taught at, the locals did just that. Now Everyone Active run that facility for the school, the council and the community. Win, win. The village I now live in is now way bigger (catchment wise) than Henley, Southam, Studley, Kineton or Shipston (all of which have at least one secondary school), but it hasn't got one. The kids have to be bussed miles at huge cost. A LOT of busses every day.

[Neils]

The College had to stop using the site due to the cost of upgrading fire alarms and other associated systems. They spent beyond their means on the modern educational building.
My team surveyed the site in the mid naughties when we were offered the whole for less than £3m.