England

[Raggs]

I've got a selective list, but others are allowed to pick out individual tournaments?

Only SCW has a better record in the 6n. Only Eddie has the 5th place finish though.

Only Ashton and SCW have done as well in the rwc recently. You really want Ashton back?

No one holds a longer win streak, no one has as good a winning record. This is over 46 tests, it's no longer in the realms of picking on small nations.

Eddie has picks I disagree with, but the idea that he needs replacing immediately, strikes me as a massive over reaction to
a squad that some don't like. Replacing him with someone with 0 international experience, simply strikes me as insanity.

How long has it taken Baxter to finally do well in Europe? His squad is extremely strong, and only now have they reached a point where they managed to do well in europe with their tactics, and lets be honest, it damn near failed in both the Euro final and the prem final against a poorly prepared and covid stricken Wasps side.

Tell me we can replace Eddie with another top international coach, I'll absolutely think about it, but tell me we're replacing him with Baxter, and no thank you.

[hopwood]

Yup....I don't agree with Eddie on some things.
But I also agree he doesn't need replacing right now.

What I do want to see...is Eddie evolving England as the game evolves.
As New Zealand, France and Australia sharpen up, fasten up and intensify their game - that's what I want to see England do.

I want to see obvious signs of improvement.
And expanding the way we play the game.
We can't just suffocate every team we play against. We have to inject pace and utilise off-loading skill too.

[BG]

I think SCW and EJ are/were blessed with talent.,, not themselves but managing assets. Would the results have been any different if someone else had the reigns.

As a player you need to believe in a purpose.. that might be monetary, that might be plaudits from your teammates, that might be family or partner encouraging you to be the best.. it might simply be knowing you won.. that you did try your hardest and came out on top..

All of us would love to represent Wasps.. or England.. Wales (WWW - Barry Nelmes). but none of us are that talented.. so all we can do is encourage and support..

Allez Allez Alez

[wasps]

I've been hearing the "biggest pool of relent to pick from" argument ever since we won the world cup and half the squad retired.


We've had so many people in charge and keep hearing that we have the biggest player pool to select from.
It's made to sound so easy, but some of the supposed best of the best coaches can't turn England into consistently the best in the world




You can have as many people playing rugby in the country as you want, but if the top 1% aren't better than the top 1% at another nation then you're still have a weaker national team.

[Raggs]

Having a playing pool spread over so many teams is also a disadvantage. Very little chance of solid combinations between the best players in their positions etc. Especially when the clubs are in it for themselves, and not merely feeders for the international side, which means they will employ foreign players in key positions.

Now I like our club game, and would rather keep it, even if it does make our international side less than it could be, but you've got to recognise the difficulties a national manager will face in these circumstances. We only need to look at the troubles we have with the number 12 shirt.

[westwaleswasp]

I've got a selective list, but others are allowed to pick out individual tournaments?

Only SCW has a better record in the 6n. Only Eddie has the 5th place finish though.

Only Ashton and SCW have done as well in the rwc recently. You really want Ashton back?

No one holds a longer win streak, no one has as good a winning record. This is over 46 tests, it's no longer in the realms of picking on small nations.

Eddie has picks I disagree with, but the idea that he needs replacing immediately, strikes me as a massive over reaction to
a squad that some don't like. Replacing him with someone with 0 international experience, simply strikes me as insanity.

How long has it taken Baxter to finally do well in Europe? His squad is extremely strong, and only now have they reached a point where they managed to do well in europe with their tactics, and lets be honest, it damn near failed in both the Euro final and the prem final against a poorly prepared and covid stricken Wasps side.

Tell me we can replace Eddie with another top international coach, I'll absolutely think about it, but tell me we're replacing him with Baxter, and no thank you.

To be fair I was not arguing for replacement one way or the other, merely commenting that your specific list was not balanced, and of course that would apply to others talking about individual tournaments, doubly so for world cups, where one game can mean success/failure. We should judge on much more than World cups.

The problem with making comparisons is that each coach lasts about 4 years, and the game changes so much that there are very few to compare fairly with. I do  feel England  have got the youth set up right for a while, and with that production line we should be near the title every year as we were under Lancaster and winning it reasonably often as we did at the start of Jones' tenure, so I will judge Jones on that standard, not comparisons with, for example Johnson. The gold standard to aim for is SCW 99-03, for my money, and probably yours?

Baxter would be a million times better than Jones as a person to represent England- but I agree, I am not certain on how good he would be as a coach of England. I would not replace anyone now, I wish Jones went of his own accord post WC though.

I would say that for some odd reason Eddie managed to avoid a tour to  NZ, and indeed only played them twice in 46 I think (Lancaster had 5 I think in 4 years) so yes, his 46 test record does need to have some matches down there for fair comparison, his win PC might suffer, but it could be the sort of test he does well in anyway.

 

[Raggs]

I'd also add that Eddie himself said at the start of 2018, that it would be different, since the focus shifted to the world cup (he even said this before 2018 I believe, 2 years to setup, then 2 years with focus on rwc). If you recall correctly, that was when the reports of the absolute beastings in training, playing training games harder than the 6N games just a few days before etc etc to build fitness.

Now whether a 5th place 6n, is worth a 2nd place in the world cup, can be argued by others.

[westwaleswasp]

I'd also add that Eddie himself said at the start of 2018, that it would be different, since the focus shifted to the world cup (he even said this before 2018 I believe, 2 years to setup, then 2 years with focus on rwc). If you recall correctly, that was when the reports of the absolute beastings in training, playing training games harder than the 6N games just a few days before etc etc to build fitness.

Now whether a 5th place 6n, is worth a 2nd place in the world cup, can be argued by others.

I do indeed remember the comments. The odd thing was some of those lynchpin players beasted then got dropped after the 5th place as he rapidly reconsidered his players- so their benefit of the beasting was non existent. 
Incidentally, as I said at the time, I don't actually think you can build fitness from that far out, it sounds implausible given the attrition rate, the off season at the end of 2018, the aging process itself and number of uncontrollable factors with the players playing and training with their clubs, so I am suspicious of the concept that there ever was a trade off in 2018 with the WC. I know a fair few sports scientists, and I have never heard of planning that far ahead. The tri nations often do sacrifice their summer event to an extent with selections etc. in the year of the WC, which sounds like a more realistic plan to me than from two years out. Of course, England looked full of energy for the semi, but a busted flush in the final, so I would say that if they can't manage fitness correctly over the short term, what chance of planning over two years out? 

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Baxter would be a million times better than Jones as a person to represent England- but I agree, I am not certain on how good he would be as a coach of England. I would not replace anyone now, I wish Jones went of his own accord post WC though.

Baxter talks to Brian Moore on his Full Contact podcast about the differences and similarities between international and club coaching. He didn't rule out the England job when asked and it sounds like he's been giving the role some serious thought.

If the change was going to happen it needed to happen after the WC or during lockdown so the new coach has time to prepare for the next WC.

[hookender]

Remember when we had all about the speculation about Dai taking Wales job? Yes, at the time he was building a potential great team ,but is that any different to Baxter who has taken a team to the next level.

[Raggs]

I'd also add that Eddie himself said at the start of 2018, that it would be different, since the focus shifted to the world cup (he even said this before 2018 I believe, 2 years to setup, then 2 years with focus on rwc). If you recall correctly, that was when the reports of the absolute beastings in training, playing training games harder than the 6N games just a few days before etc etc to build fitness.

Now whether a 5th place 6n, is worth a 2nd place in the world cup, can be argued by others.

I do indeed remember the comments. The odd thing was some of those lynchpin players beasted then got dropped after the 5th place as he rapidly reconsidered his players- so their benefit of the beasting was non existent. 
Incidentally, as I said at the time, I don't actually think you can build fitness from that far out, it sounds implausible given the attrition rate, the off season at the end of 2018, the aging process itself and number of uncontrollable factors with the players playing and training with their clubs, so I am suspicious of the concept that there ever was a trade off in 2018 with the WC. I know a fair few sports scientists, and I have never heard of planning that far ahead. The tri nations often do sacrifice their summer event to an extent with selections etc. in the year of the WC, which sounds like a more realistic plan to me than from two years out. Of course, England looked full of energy for the semi, but a busted flush in the final, so I would say that if they can't manage fitness correctly over the short term, what chance of planning over two years out?

Eddie's fitness expert at the time (who is far more qualified than any of us in the subject), seemed confident that it could be done.

Managing energy and enthusiasm over a week is so different from building fitness for 2 years that it's a completely pointless comparison.

For me, losing Sinkler in the first few minutes turned that game from a 50/50 into a 10/90. Sinklers workrate for a tighthead is simply off the charts, whereas Cole was right on the edge of simply not being upto it at the time (unfortunately, we didn't really have many other good options at tighthead at the time).

[mike909]

Two things - firstly, when I made the comment on win stats - my thought was really that win percentages are reliant on so many factors that it's really hard to make any meaningful comparisons. Except where they are grossly different. Jones' win percentage is the best, but it is a factor, who he's had so far on his tour schedule.

Secondly, I'm not a great fan of Jones, I don't believe he has the welfare of players to the fore and is often a coach that makes changes when forced. He was a coach with 2 years to the RWC still selecting Haskell, well past his best (just as an example) and Te'O and Ashton in the 2019 6Ns and was trying to convert as centre to FB only 14 months pre the RWC. The team only changes materially after that 5 losses.

Now that could happen to any coach - but the 2018 results were in part due to (imo...) not taking note of how the breakdown was changing. I mean looking back, selecting a back row of Lawes, Robshaw and Hughes vs a swift Scotland team only 15 or so months out from a RWC suggests quite conservative thinking. Then licking the same vs France and then all change vs Ireland (Robshaw excepted) losing all three...And yet the claims made for Jones and by Jones are that he's looking for innovation....there was little of that 15 months out from a RWC.

Now that RWC went well, including one of England's best ever games vs NZ, but he's not alone in getting England to a RWC Final...Geoff Cook, SCW and Ashton did that, nor alone in beating NZ...

He's obviously one of the great team coaches - I just can't see the long term in Jones. I guess we'll see. But it would be contrary to his record for the longer term to go well. Personally, I'd have preferred change - but that's my prerogative 

[westwaleswasp]

All of us would love to represent Wasps.. or England.. Wales (WWW - Barry Nelmes).

Allez Allez Alez

A blast from the past!

[coddy]

Its clear the EJ has been allowed to have another crack at the World Cup which is fair enough given how close his team came in Japan.

I just hope the RFU have a clear succession plan in place for someone such as Baxter to come  in post France 2023.

[Shugs]

Exeter are a peculiar beast. There are so many intangibles that contribute to their success that I don't think their success means Baxter should be England coach. I don't think Jones should be replaced at the moment as there are no immediate candidates but when the time does come I won't be shedding many tears.