England

[westwaleswasp]

One of my first alarm bells about Eddie was his comments about fitness.  If you check up on the history of EJ fitness comments you will find a reference to
' I reckon the gap is 30 percent'.
The context was his claims that England match day players were fitter than those in the premiership outside the squad.
Note the use if the word 'I' and 'reckon'.

Not my 'fitness guys' have said or ' we measured' or similar. He makes the claim, but no actual measurements of said players were used for the claim, which is one of the Eddie issues for me- Trump esque baseless claims with zero evidence, and to make claims like this you actually need to make quantifyable measurenents- that is basic science, and nobody gets a pass on that. It's like a twisted Brass Eye sketch 'there is no actual evidence, but it is a scientific fact'. 

He also makes comments about opposition fitness, did it to Ireland this year. If he cut it out I would be much happier.

[Heathen]

Well that was a crock of doodah! Very poor from England!

[backdoc]

Lifeless England - I actually fell asleep for 5 mins, and I find myself cheering Italy on.

Ball kicked 22 times by England.

[wasps]

I think it's fair to say that Rob Baxter has earned the right to be involved in the discussion for the next England boss.

However, I'd be nervous about his lack of experience -
only ever coached one team, that being the same team he played for.
Only ever experienced coaching at club level where he has constant access to players

Exeter's style is all about retaining possession and performing the basics better than anyone else. This has been drilled into the entire squad over a number of years - how do you translate that to a national team?


What I think surprises me most is fans complaining that England are boring and how they stick to the game plan script..,... And then the same fans calling for Rob Baxter to replace Eddie.


There's no doubting that Baxter appears to have a much nicer persona and doesn't appear to dabble in the mind games that Eddie loves.

However, there's an argument that Eddie's approach is about deflecting attention onto himself and reducing the pressure on the team.

But, would an England team with Rob Baxter in charge play particularly differently to this current team.
We know that Baxter loves forward dominance, and that plan A is to go through multiple phases over and again remain patient and wait for the opposition to make a mistake.
He usually utilises a style where the fly half will strongly weight territory over sending the ball wide.


Is it really any different to what England do at the moment?
I don't see it as delivering the excitement that so many crave, rather a transition to a new head coach without disrupting the playing style too much.




The saving grace however could be that Baxter may have the same disdain for Saracens and their players that Tony Rowe has.
If that is the case then it could be the end of their players making up the bulk of the England side.
Although, I kinda feel that Farrell is the type of fly half that Baxter would love

[Lwasp]

This board is a funny old place. A few weeks ago Exeter were devil incarnate for their playing style, winning yes but not doing it with flair or entertainment value. Now Baxter seems to be everyone's choice as England coach. So as England fans you'd accept Exeter style ground out wins, but as Wasps fans Exeter doing it is boring? I would like England to win another RWC and I would like them to do it playing like SA did last year. That had power up front, but also dynamic backs that scored some lovely tries.

As for the "largest player pool" I've said before that claim is based on registered player numbers. If I started playing for my local 5th team I'd be a registered player, but I'm sure as heck not in consideration for an England call up. England have 12 teams in the Premiership (and given EJ's EA love in 13 if you still count them) that is realistically the pool EJ can pick from. France has 14. We do not have the biggest pool of players that the national side is picked from.

As an aside, this weekend seemed far more noticeable than before just how many Saffers are now representing other nations. Enough for a high quality XV???

[PestNproud]

As for the "largest player pool" I've said before that claim is based on registered player numbers. If I started playing for my local 5th team I'd be a registered player, but I'm sure as heck not in consideration for an England call up. England have 12 teams in the Premiership (and given EJ's EA love in 13 if you still count them) that is realistically the pool EJ can pick from. France has 14. We do not have the biggest pool of players that the national side is picked from.

As an aside, this weekend seemed far more noticeable than before just how many Saffers are now representing other nations. Enough for a high quality XV???

Not exactly like for like as will include some lower leagues, but South Africa conceivably has getting on for twice the 'pool' of anyone else, if reports are correct of 500+ overseas, plus maybe another 250 at home. Guesstimating France ~450, England ~400.

Whilst the All Blacks have been standout in recent decades, the Springboks history puts them up there, too.

Curious, how does France's Pro D2 compare to the English Championship? From little I know, appears considerably better resourced.

[matelot22]

I think it's fair to say that Rob Baxter has earned the right to be involved in the discussion for the next England boss.

However, I'd be nervous about his lack of experience -
only ever coached one team, that being the same team he played for.
Only ever experienced coaching at club level where he has constant access to players

Exeter's style is all about retaining possession and performing the basics better than anyone else. This has been drilled into the entire squad over a number of years - how do you translate that to a national team?


What I think surprises me most is fans complaining that England are boring and how they stick to the game plan script..,... And then the same fans calling for Rob Baxter to replace Eddie.


There's no doubting that Baxter appears to have a much nicer persona and doesn't appear to dabble in the mind games that Eddie loves.

However, there's an argument that Eddie's approach is about deflecting attention onto himself and reducing the pressure on the team.

But, would an England team with Rob Baxter in charge play particularly differently to this current team.
We know that Baxter loves forward dominance, and that plan A is to go through multiple phases over and again remain patient and wait for the opposition to make a mistake.
He usually utilises a style where the fly half will strongly weight territory over sending the ball wide.


Is it really any different to what England do at the moment?
I don't see it as delivering the excitement that so many crave, rather a transition to a new head coach without disrupting the playing style too much.




The saving grace however could be that Baxter may have the same disdain for Saracens and their players that Tony Rowe has.
If that is the case then it could be the end of their players making up the bulk of the England side.
Although, I kinda feel that Farrell is the type of fly half that Baxter would love

This. Absolutely a massive +1!

[Heathen]

Curious, how does France's Pro D2 compare to the English Championship? From little I know, appears considerably better resourced.

Most ProD2 clubs have an owner/major sponsoring individual. The nearest club to my abode in France is Vannes. I follow them with interest and they have certainly made an impact, reaching the play offs last year, in the first season in D2. They lead the table this time around.

When you look at the Championship, who have Mike Gooley as their owner, other than the EAs, I don't the rset are too awash with cash.

[mike909]

My main disappointment with England vs Italy, it that a team which started with 11 of 15 RWC Final starters plus two from the bench that day starting was asked to play too much like it was 1973 and Martin Cooper was asked to kick every ball resulting in Duckham never seeing the ball (may have the wrong protagonists but the point remains)

This was England's first choice pack plus a new SR and first choice 9 and 11 and 14 and a regular 10 and 13. This wasn't the scratch team that I've seen described (wrongly imo) in other places.

And vs Italy, a team that conceded 50+ vs Ireland, Jones' strategy was conservative and dull....and wasn't that far from misfiring.

Yet we're supposed to think that some renaissance is just round the corner according to the stuff coming out of the England camp.  Now, I am no rugby expert, but even as an old prop and keen fan, I wonder why a coach lacking SH's won't play or consider the form SH's in England and selects no inside centres in the 23 and selects a FB needing chaperoning for every ball kicked......

There's no doubt Jones is a decent coach - but for me at least, there is too much about Eddie and it seems trying to keep the press and others guessing - just because he can.

This was a pretty low bar of a game and yet there are all these "we're only seeing the beginning" coming out of camp. Beating Italy - least at present - really ought not to provoke self congratulation like you've just won a series away in NZ....but that's how it seems. Like saying how brilliant Youngs was.....vs a team I think Wasps would be disappointed not to beat....

Jones will go all the way to the RWC. The main concern is that we end up with that focus and nothing beyond. We've done well over the last 15 years to bring through the talent from U-20's, and we really need to have two targets, development for the future and winning now. Not sure Jones is the man for that.

Who's next - not a clue - prob not Baxter, but in 4 years time, who knows.

[DGP Wasp]

Taking Baxter straight from Exeter to England would be a huge gamble.  His record as a club coach is excellent; not just where Exeter are now, but the manner in which he got them there, with few big superstar signings and a focus on developing their own.  However, he has no test experience as either player or coach, and the international game is a world away from the club game.  It's not the step up in quality that concerns me, Baxter has taken that in his stride before with promotions all the way to the Premiership, but it's the wholly different environment, without the week-in, week-out involvement with the squad, and managing players that are released to him for a limited number of weeks per year from various different club environments.  It's a very different job.  IMO he would ideally need a full World Cup cycle as a right hand man to an experienced international coach (almost certainly not English due to a complete lack of options), and even with the promise of the top job at the end of it, I can't imagine he'd leave Exeter for that.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I'm another who doesn't really understand why Baxter is in the frame for England with so many people.  Other than the fact he isn't a clown.

[coddy]

Add to that he's a winner, English and respectful to opponents doesn't hurt either.

I will also add that despite some supporters misgivings on Exeters playing style he may well be intelligent enough to, given the players at his disposal allow the National team play a more expansive game than what we think.

[Hymenoptera]

I'm another who doesn't really understand why Baxter is in the frame for England with so many people.  Other than the fact he isn't a clown.

Other than proven winner, excellent man management, talent identification, player development to international level, likeable, personable...
My question is why not and who is better placed.

[Wiltshire Wasp]

I'm another who doesn't really understand why Baxter is in the frame for England with so many people.  Other than the fact he isn't a clown.

Other than proven winner, excellent man management, talent identification, player development to international level, likeable, personable...
My question is why not and who is better placed.

Mark McCall? He hits 4 out of those 6 criteria.   However I would find it hard to be content with his appointment. 

[wasps]

My feeling is that if you're after an elite international coach to push forward one of the top tier nations, then you don't pick Baxter.

Afterall, could you see Australia, new Zealand, South Africa, Wales even having him on a shortlist?


However, as an English coach, and given how he has consistently improved Exeter to becoming European and domestic champions, he deserves to at least be added to the discussion for next England head coach.

Afterall, his success should merit some form of reward.



The fact that he seems like a genuinely good guy probably doesn't carry much weight with the RFU, but it would with me.

I'm not sure who I'd choose to replace Jones, but if it was to be Baxter, I'd support him 100%