Reversed Penalties

[Mellie]

The incident between Gloucester and Sale at the end of their game got me thinking about the law regarding penalty reversals. The outcome of that incident actually rewarded the initiator of it by benefitting Sale.

It is human nature to be frustrated with blatant unfairness and this can lead to a reaction. I think that the law needs to take into account the proportion of the original offence and the reaction.

In this case it was a blatant act of cheating by a Sale member of Staff directly interfering in play. His dismssal to the stands had no impact on the seriousness of the offence. Twelvetree's reaction was perfectly understandable. He just pushed the guy in frustration. It was not that dangerous or likely to inflict serious harm. That the guy went down like 10 pins made it look worse. Tom Curry then got involved causing the mass brawl.

An appropriate outcome should have rewarded Gloucester, so penalty to them with yellow cards for both Twelvetrees and Curry. Through the book at the waterboy later. This guy really needs to be penalised seriously. Even if you can't penalise a non-player their team should be penalised. We don't want to see try saving tackles by waterboys in future do we?

We also don't want windup merchants causing incidents aimed to or likely to provoke a reaction to benefit their team. The outcomes must be proportionate. Let original penalty stand and treat the provocateur and provoked proportionately.

[wasps]

In this incident maybe.

But I often feel that the penalty reversal, and the "march back 10 metres" are sanctions that are under used these days

[jamestaylor002]

I was pleased to see a penalty reversal against Sale (I think it was) after a Gloucester knock on due to the Sale player sarcastically patting the Gloucs player on the head.

[Neils]

I was pleased to see a penalty reversal against Sale (I think it was) after a Gloucester knock on due to the Sale player sarcastically patting the Gloucs player on the head.

Should happen more!!

[jamestaylor002]

I was pleased to see a penalty reversal against Sale (I think it was) after a Gloucester knock on due to the Sale player sarcastically patting the Gloucs player on the head.

Should happen more!!

With those who are more "in the know", why do we see such a huge discrepancy between what happens out on the pitch at grass roots and at the elite level? I get that there will be differences in the way the game is played/officiated (the likes of me at grass roots are hardly professional athletes!) but I feel like it's complete worlds apart?

[RogerE]

I was pleased to see a penalty reversal against Sale (I think it was) after a Gloucester knock on due to the Sale player sarcastically patting the Gloucs player on the head.

Should happen more!!

The ref actually mentioned unsportsmanship behaviour as he awarded the penalty against Sale.

[Horusthewasp]

In this case it was a blatant act of cheating by a Sale member of Staff directly interfering in play. His dismssal to the stands had no impact on the seriousness of the offence. Twelvetree's reaction was perfectly understandable. He just pushed the guy in frustration. It was not that dangerous or likely to inflict serious harm. That the guy went down like 10 pins made it look worse. Tom Curry then got involved causing the mass brawl.

An appropriate outcome should have rewarded Gloucester, so penalty to them with yellow cards for both Twelvetrees and Curry. Through the book at the waterboy later. This guy really needs to be penalised seriously. Even if you can't penalise a non-player their team should be penalised. We don't want to see try saving tackles by waterboys in future do we?

Dickson and the TMO didn’t have a good game and Gloucester had every right to feel aggrieved. Not only did they deem the obvious shoulder charge by Du Preez as no foul play (even when the TMO watched the replay) but the handling of the Twelvetrees/water boy debacle was a shambles. I agree with the actions you suggested.

Yes, the rule of law is clear but equally important, if not more important, is a ref’s awareness & understanding of the situation and context within a game. How they act under pressure or to unusual situations is a telling sign of a ref’s officiating skills. I think it’s that mentality but also experience that sets apart the likes of Nigel Owens & Wayne Barnes from the rest.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I think it’s that mentality but also experience that sets apart the likes of Nigel Owens & Wayne Barnes from the rest.

I agree ... but ... Barnes tends to dismiss stuff with the 'I didn't see that' reply, or lets stuff slide to keep the game flowing, a little bit too much for me. There is be nothing wrong with him asking the TMO to check whilst the game runs on. Now, the last game I saw him do (not sure which it was) he was doing just that. So, for me, an improvement, where he was using his 'team' more. He had an excellent game. And as for Nigel, he used to get some stuff wrong, but he had a great feel for the game and it showed in the way players treated him. They knew he knew.

And I agree, Dickson had a bad game. That shoulder charge was an instance of where he bottled it. and as for the water boy incident, I too would have kept the penalty as it was, sent both off with yellows, and reported the club for action by the RFU. That would have been both balanced and fair.

[Rossm]

Shouldn't really call him a waterboy. Sounds about 10, was probably 30-40.

[Lwasp]

I guess all Dickson could have done is loudly shout "Time Off" as soon as the Wateroik touched the ball. Assuming 36 didn't react as a result of time being off Dickson could then have dismissed the ball tamperer and awarded Gloucs a pen for deliberate knock on in to touch?

[DGP Wasp]

New restrictions this week from PRL on non-playing squad members at games.  Only designated travelling reserves allowed.  Did this incident figure in their thinking? There was very little social distancing going on among the spectators, or between players and spectators, and very few of those not playing appeared to be wearing masks.  Or are the new rules simply a consequence of the current heightened risk?

[hookender]

Thinks it’s just a reaction to number of cases seen at clubs. Considering the number of cases that seem to involve non players or non playing MatchDay squads it may be safest to be on pitch!

[13thWarrior]

Does anyone have a link or know the time in the match of this incident with the waterboy?

[Mellie]

79th minute. Virtually no time left and 36 was looking to take a quick lineout or maybe a tap penalty due to deliberate knock-on. Waterboy prevented it and Sale ended up with the penalty as a result of the incident.