Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.  (Read 4016 times)

baldpaul101

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 09:24:52 AM »
I don't agree he was swearing at the the ref. IMO he was swearing because he couldn't believe the no arms tackle had been made & the whistle hadn't blown immediately.

Rossm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7462
  • Hey, Slow Down.
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 09:32:06 AM »
Brian Moore's view. Today's Telegraph:

Call me old-fashioned but Kyle Sinckler's F-bomb row highlights need for respect

It is an after-dinner anecdote told by all players of all sports. You know the one, about them asking the referee, “What would you do if I called you a ----?” “I’d send you off for unsportsmanlike conduct.” “What would you do if I thought you were a ----?” “I couldn’t do anything about what you think.” “OK ref, I think you’re a ----.”

OK it is not true, but behind the joke is a question that is more important than you think. What should sport do about players swearing on the field, given that in every other area of life the attitude towards it has changed markedly?

The soon-to-be-deposed President of the United States, British cabinet ministers, television show hosts and many more use swear words without condemnation by the media and public. Given this shift in social mores, Kyle Sinckler, the Bristol and England prop, might feel a tad aggrieved at the reaction to an incident in his game against local rivals Exeter.

One headline claimed he had issued a “foul and abusive tirade” at Karl Dickson, in response to the referee’s ruling that a tackle by an Exeter player was not illegal. “Are you f------ serious?” were the words used and, for what it is worth, I thought the replays favoured the player over the referee. He was not sent off, but warned that his comments were unacceptable, and a penalty given against him. Public and media reaction was swift and harsh, with some calling for him to be suspended.

I can appreciate both the player’s and his critics’ point of view.

He could say that it is hypocritical to claim he sets a bad example to others, especially children, unless you similarly judge all those people mentioned above. They have an equal, if not greater, responsibility to set a good example. Much is made of the fact that the comment was made to the referee, but why is that different to shouts of “he’s f------ offside” and similar, which are regularly heard during games, and which have gone unpunished? His was made after the referee’s ruling, the others before, but both are directed at the referee.

What the referee’s mic has shown is that players question the official all the time and if you say the distinction is that Sinckler swore, what do you say about the swearing that players direct at each other and generally? If swearing is unacceptable, and damages the image of rugby, surely that applies to all swearing, whatever the context? The comment was mild compared with those made constantly in other sports that go unpunished.

In response, I would say that rugby should try to adhere to its core principles, and the one that applies here is that of respect. If others want to claim sanctimony and mock, that is their problem; better to have imperfect standards than no standards at all. Whatever other sports do about this should be of no concern. The fact that rugby’s media and fans have double standards is also their problem.

I accept that rugby is a game of physical contact, where players say things they regret, but that does not mean swearing should be condoned. If swearing is general (not directed at someone) and infrequent, it can be dealt with by a quiet word from the referee.

Swearing at an opponent or an official is a different matter and it should be penalised. If you want respect to be given, it should be applied to all on the field. Whether it is further sanctioned has to depend on what is said and its context but, given its subjectivity, everyone concerned must accept that certainty and consistency cannot be achieved. Every decision will attract “what-aboutery”.

Comments made to an official should be in a higher category of offence because those carrying out this difficult job must be given protection and automatic respect. Whatever they claim to the contrary, players decide what they want to do or not do. They might occasionally lapse, and I admit that I swore on the field, but no player is compelled to swear, and I never swore at a referee.

I would ask this: if you were making an official after-game complaint about a referee, would you swear in the complaint? The answer is no, so why should you do this on the field?

This is about a mindset, and inculcating a no-swearing attitude among players encourages a better approach to the game for players, supporters and officials. If you see this as old-fashioned and an out-of-touch approach, so be it, but you can see in other sports what happens if you allow swearing to go unsanctioned – mild comments lead to worse and finally to disgusting abuse. What are the positives for rugby in allowing it?

SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

RogerE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Old Wasps Player (Not saying which team and when!)
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2021, 10:53:44 AM »
Reminds me of a match a few years ago - I think it was Spreaders reffing it - when one of the players shouted something to another player that included the F word.

The ref stopped the game, went up to the player and reminded him that the ref mike was on and his words could be heard by children watching the match, and awarded a penalty to the other team.

hookender

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2021, 12:03:12 PM »
I think the problem is that the f word has become a filler in conversation,some people don’t even realise they are saying it. Because some hear it so much they don’t register it has been said either.

Just think how much is probably not being picked up by mics.

mike909

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2021, 02:29:32 PM »
I'm probably in the Brian Moore camp in that I'd have sworn at other players - though not often, more banter which in reality is less respectful than swearing for me - but not the ref. I realise now that I do swear a fair amount - moderated by situation and I do have sympathies for the player in this case. It didn't appear anything other than "filler" - but I would have expected a penalty reversal or whatever if it had been me.

It's never such a good idea to compare sports - but the last local football match before lockdown, I was walking my dog past, I was embarrassed by the language. It was loud and clear and in the faces of anyone watching, whatever age - and not a thing done by the officials. This was a proper league game. Full official support. I couldn't have stayed and watched, and I'm no delicate wallflower. Hell, I'm an old prop.....

I think rugby needs to make sure it does understand what it's trying to avoid/condone and operating like that soccer game was something I'd hope rugby could avoid.

petros

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2021, 02:46:31 PM »
And cited already

SteveA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2021, 04:01:19 PM »
Sinclair should of received at minimum a yellow for his language. It was disrespectful and aimed directly at Dixon. It is behaviour like that which is the thin of the wedge and needs stamping on immediately! Karl was wrong not to of carded him and placed him on the naughty step.
+1

andermt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2021, 11:13:43 AM »

NorthYorksWasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2021, 11:29:42 AM »
Personally speaking, a good result. Warranted a ban of some description if only as wake up call and deterrent to others. Appreciate, in the heat of the moment, maybe his reaction was understandable but it is something which must not be allowed to creep into the game.
Also wonder if somebody had a quiet, friendly word with Karl Dickson and said 'don't let it happen again'.

Neils

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14802
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2021, 11:42:42 AM »
He contested the citing but only got 2 weeks which is normally the fake guilty plea reduced sort of figure. They really need to get hold of banning levels and so called mitigations. This just looks like a faint slap across the hand and cleared for most of the 6N sanction. With the publicity this got it should have been stronger - I pity refs in lower leagues when rugby returns with this level of punishment. Odious individual.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4425
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2021, 12:20:00 PM »
Would have liked him to have got longer. A real chance to put a marker down that swearing at the ref is not on. Still, at least some action was taken.

westwaleswasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2021, 10:25:37 PM »
I'm probably in the Brian Moore camp in that I'd have sworn at other players - though not often, more banter which in reality is less respectful than swearing for me - but not the ref. I realise now that I do swear a fair amount - moderated by situation and I do have sympathies for the player in this case. It didn't appear anything other than "filler" - but I would have expected a penalty reversal or whatever if it had been me.

It's never such a good idea to compare sports - but the last local football match before lockdown, I was walking my dog past, I was embarrassed by the language. It was loud and clear and in the faces of anyone watching, whatever age - and not a thing done by the officials. This was a proper league game. Full official support. I couldn't have stayed and watched, and I'm no delicate wallflower. Hell, I'm an old prop.....

I think rugby needs to make sure it does understand what it's trying to avoid/condone and operating like that soccer game was something I'd hope rugby could avoid.

This is spot on for me. Rugby must avoid the soccer route.  As a ref @ school level, when I ref soccer, nowadays if I hear swearing 'out of earshot' and not aimed at me (or towards opposition) I turn a blind ear, because with some schools,I would be reffing 4 a side ten mins in. If it is aimed at me or deliberately said, then you are yellow carding, but some kids use it as a comma.  A player makes a mistake, and swears at no one other than themselves you just have to try not to hear. If it was cricket or rugby I would have a different view, but nowadays a 12A film can have the same language and the pupils just repeat what they hear off TV. Changing room language is everywhere. If it is at opposition or the ref, very different indeed. I would much rather be able to send off at my discretion, but it would be like punishing the crooked feed. Why this time and not the other 98? I have reffed at the ISA boy's soccer, and even then the 12 to 14  year olds swear at each other without ever showing dissent to the ref and do so constantly. 
There is also context. At a ladies u15 fixture a girl scored in a match  I reffed. The celebrations went on a bit and I hurried them a bit. 'Steady on, just one nil'.  The response I got was ' You don't understand, it is the first time she scored since f***ing puberty'. In that situation it was blatant, but entirely humorous, and they got a 'pretend I did not hear that'and a smile. Had I brandished cards, the good nature of the game would simply have gone and that fixture would not have been repeated next year. It is my job to make sure those girls come back next week or next year, whilst also upholding the school standards, which vary significantly between schools.
 I hope rugby does uphold its standards, but soccer I can tell you has gone. From school level rugby I have attended, in S Wales at least, it seems to be loosening somewhat, though not as bad as soccer. Still I would like to see any disrespect to the ref hammered down upon whilst we can. It is not a coincidence that whilst I like soccer, my daughter has never been taken to it live, unlike rugby and cricket.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 10:40:41 PM by westwaleswasp »

mike909

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2021, 10:41:21 PM »
Thanks

Excellent post and very interesting. It might be I haven't seen a local soccer game for many years - but I was quite taken aback....

I see your point and agree that if you took the "by the book" approach, you'd be 5 a side in no time. We do need to keep rugby away from that route. But there needs to be the ability to have some "humour" get out......

wasps

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Call me old fashioned - Sinckler.
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2021, 11:16:18 PM »

I was undecided on the actual incident.

I've sworn on the pitch numerous times, although I'm pretty sure it was always at myself.


However, the one but that has swayed me is Brian Moore's final comment.
What benefit does rugby get from letting it go unpunished?


It didn't need to be a big punishment, just a marker to say that it's not right and it's not allowed.
There's then precedent in place. Future refs will likely award a card, and citings will happen if required.

2 weeks feels fine if it's to put a line down to say to other players "if you swear, you'll miss 2 games".