Leicester Tigers v Wasps post match thoughts.

[Mellie]

Think someone needs to deliver the type of team talk Lol gave straight after we capitulated to Munster some years ago. Basically he said, if you can't front up and give everything in your performance for the club then f*** off!

We won the next game against a star studded Toulouse 77-17 and so began the Wasps golden era.

[HDAWG]

Is it worth having another experienced scrum half as a marquee signing? The drop off from Robson to everyone else is huge, but if we had an experienced player when Robson's gone, it would help us now but also assist in developing Wolstenholme and Porter.

[Wombles]

Think someone needs to deliver the type of team talk Lol gave straight after we capitulated to Munster some years ago. Basically he said, if you can't front up and give everything in your performance for the club then f*** off!

We won the next game against a star studded Toulouse 77-17 and so began the Wasps golden era.

This is EXACTLY the sort of message that needs saying...it is time to sort the wheat from the chaff. Playing for Wasps should be seen by all who wear the black and gold as one of the pinnacles of achievement and reflect the honour of representing not only the club but everyone who has gone before. If any player is even 1% off that then it is time to remove them and replace them with someone willing to give their absolute all. Names and reputations matter little if this is not the foundation of every players mindset and drive.

[InBetweenWasp]

Mellow and Wombles, do you both believe the latest string of results is simply an effort issue?

[Mellie]

The lack of urgency and intensity is the obvious problem leading to no effective physicality.

That may be an attitude problem, a coaching problem or the affect of not having enough fit players to train properly. As fans we don't know. Maybe a combination.

The first is up to each player to address and a strong captain to galvanise. The second is up to Lee to fix and the last is up to the gods!

[MarleyWasp]

Throughout our great run after the restart last season I always had this nagging question in the back of my mind about whether our final league position was a genuine reflection on our squad or whether it was aided by the short turnaround preventing opposition from figuring us out, putting out full strength sides and our momentum helping us considerably. Now we are back into the more usual system of one match a week it does feel like we've been found out.

Losing players such as Dobby, Launchbury, Jack and Alfie haven't helped and whilst you'd naturally expect a drop in performance with four players of such quality missing, I don't think it's just that that's affecting the team at the moment. The most disappointing aspect of yesterday was how many players (especially those either rumoured or confirmed to be leaving) gave the impression that they were just going through the motions.

I do think restrictions on players who aren't involved in the match day squad (including traveling reserves) no longer being allowed to attend games hasn't helped. Chris Boyd commented on how much noise those players made in the first match back in August and you sensed it giving the team a lift on the pitch. It can be no coincidence that our form has plummeted since then.

I thought all three red cards were fair. I was particularly disappointed in Brookes given there were similarities in his action yesterday as with his yellow card against Saints. That yellow should have been a wake up call that he can't go into contact like that but he hasn't learnt his lesson and now leaves us vulnerable as if Owlett is still injured we'll need to bring a loosehead in.

Scrum half is a big worry. There's a huge gulf between Robson and Vellacott/Wolstenholme/Porter. If the Lions tour goes ahead and Dobby is picked with mandatory rest periods and autumn internationals we could be without him until December next season.

Without wanting to sound like the stereotypical poster from the other place, I do fear given the form that Irish, Newcastle and Bristol are in that by the time the 6 Nations is over our Premiership season will be as good as over unless we have a Saracens 60-10 style response next week.

[wasps]

Marley, I too felt that our good run of form after the restart could have been as much about us adapting to playing again better than other teams.
Given how much we thrive on broken field play, a lack of training across all teams and therefore defensive cohesion, could very easily have helped us play our natural game.


If we were punching above our weight then, maybe we're now seeing our actual level, which isn't dissimilar to what was occurring immediately before Dai left.



I've also felt that a lot of our games have been won by stellar performances by a couple of players.
Every team is going to have star players and will struggle without them, but given how reliant we are on dominating the breakdown, we will always struggle without Willis and Young.... And that's before considering how well Barbeary was playing, albeit in a different role.



We have excellent players throughout our team, however we need quick ball and we need turnover ball to be able to pressure the opposition. Without that, we seem to have no way of taking it to the opposition and then we're always on the back foot

[westwaleswasp]

Last year we had the luxury of a large number of players to rotate of high quality, thanks to our youngsters coming through being able to fill in the gaps better than most clubs could manage. Odogwu was not even making the team most weeks. Our international call ups were fewer  and we were not picking up the injuries.
Fast forward and the absentee list is greater by far. Young nine and tens find life a lot easier when they have a rampaging back row for 80 mins, when guys like Barbeary, Willis T or Shields are replacing Young, Willis J. Right now they have a pack that is on the back foot, and they are having a harder time of it.

[Shugs]

Some great posts here most of which encompass the thoughts I've had. For me yesterday was the worst performance of Lee's tenure so far. Two points that really struck a chord. We've lost our identity. We won so much possession and disrupted teams so much with our turnover ability. Since Willis played I'd be surprised if we've got double figures. Oghre showed a bit of it v Saints but no-one else seems capable. It's a part of the game Young seems to have lost - at one point he was the best in the league. Teams can keep structure against us and we can't attack through broken play or front foot ball. Secondly I completely agree that teams dropping bombs is incredibly dull. Wigglesworth did it endlessly. However, we've no hope of seeing the last of it with a tiny full back and two 10's who both look really shaky catching. Teams have worked that out and are actively employing it. Yesterday we were so poor in the backfield that we just couldn't get out of our half. For me Miller has to play 15 to give us more solidity (he's also better attacking than Minozzi). When we're full strength we have no issues. If we're not we've got to be a bit cuter and deploy plans B and C etc.

[Wombles]

Mellow and Wombles, do you both believe the latest string of results is simply an effort issue?

Every game of rugby is built upon foundation stones, two of those corner stones are effort and physicality. If you get your mental and physical intensity correct everything flows from there. You start to win the collisions, you start to win the gain line, you can give the backs front foot ball who can work the opposition around the park and eventually fatigue them in mind and body. We showed neither intent or desire from the start and when that happens you have no base, and no base means the opposition achieve all that you are aiming for and those repercussions were there for us all to see yesterday (those of us able to stomach the full 80 minutes)  The questions have to be asked around preparation, and also how we emotionally prepare. Tigers v Wasps are one of THE games of any season as befits 2 of the most successful teams in the game, so to fall short as we did was surprising and hugely disappointing. I had Tigers as favourites, but not for one moment did i think we would lose in the manner we did. And this is why we need another Dallaghio moment, as of all our losses this season this was the one never to be repeated again.

[Chunky24]

Mellow and Wombles, do you both believe the latest string of results is simply an effort issue?

Every game of rugby is built upon foundation stones, two of those corner stones are effort and physicality. If you get your mental and physical intensity correct everything flows from there. You start to win the collisions, you start to win the gain line, you can give the backs front foot ball who can work the opposition around the park and eventually fatigue them in mind and body. We showed neither intent or desire from the start and when that happens you have no base, and no base means the opposition achieve all that you are aiming for and those repercussions were there for us all to see yesterday (those of us able to stomach the full 80 minutes)  The questions have to be asked around preparation, and also how we emotionally prepare. Tigers v Wasps are one of THE games of any season as befits 2 of the most successful teams in the game, so to fall short as we did was surprising and hugely disappointing. I had Tigers as favourites, but not for one moment did i think we would lose in the manner we did. And this is why we need another Dallaghio moment, as of all our losses this season this was the one never to be repeated again.

Agree, despite being sent off Wiese pretty much set up the match win for Tigers with that one run, showed and exposed the difference in physicality and desire.

[mike909]

It was a dreadful game. I watched all of it. We probably ought to have been further behind and sooner. Starting badly and not improving much even with the subs.

Looking back to that win (one amongst many) last season at Sarries - we were able to field a 23 with lots of players on rotation, whilst having most of our squad available and fit and fresh. And we showed up what was (on paper) a quality Euro Cup team.

What we can't know and perhaps Bobby Bridge can write something on this, is just how close are we to not being able to field a team, how many players are carrying injuries and how many are in the "red zone" with minutes played over the last couple of months.

As someone else noted, only Wasps and Exeter have played all their games and both are underperforming and Exeter lost to Saints yesterday with a strong team/bench selected including many/most of their stars.

So - it's definitely not an excuse, but it is a reasonable observation and question. How is the performance when gauged in the context of injuries, the season, game times etc ? That alongside clear confidence issues for certain players.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

To Mike's point, we are close to having to start with 2 or maybe more loan players on the bench, if not on the park.

[Covkid40]

I think another problem when the opposition forwards see a team including Robson, Willis, Young, Rowlands, Launchbury and Barbeary it alters the way they play due to the quality they are facing, at the moment nobody fears our forwards and as such we are not getting any possession let alone being dominate up front. That combined with our inability to deal with high balls in the back field is killing us. I do believe some players are almost running on empty such as Shields, you couldn't question his commitment to the cause against Tigers but he can't do everything. things will improve when we get the internationals and some of the injured players back not only because of their quality but because they won't have been infected by the fear that appears to have run rampant through the squad, My concern is it may be too late by then.

[Rifleman Harris]

I haven't seen the game so can't comment on that, but some general thoughts spring to mind (massive waffle coming I'm afraid):

As people have mentioned above Exeter and ourselves had the shortest break and both are under performing.  It is also a strange season and that is clearly affecting teams across sports - Liverpool are having a nightmare season, Tottenham aren't firing, meanwhile West Ham and 'lesser' teams are prospering.  Also we are seeing teams dipping more in form than usual - Liverpool, even Man City before their latest run, Exeter in our sport.  I don't think anyone can predict what effect lockdowns and bubbles have one individual players (especially those a long way from home), but as a whole it must be disruptive.

Then looking at individuals; young players always peak and fall more than experienced players as they have less to draw on when it goes wrong and when your senior players are also struggling it compounds those problems.  Also, these youngsters have probably never been 'worked out' before - maybe on a match to match basis, but probably not with the analysis that goes on in the professional game.  I wonder if we have a number of players where this is happening at the same time, without the luxury of being able to take them out and fix the issues.

Finally, I would bet good money we have players playing who wouldn't be if we had a full squad fit.  The one that puzzles me is Minozzi as he pulled out of the Italy squad due to the pressures of bubbles etc.  I was really surprised he came straight back in as I expected him to have some time to get his head straight.   

I think we have a perfect storm that is impacting everything, in normal times players would be given time to get away but right now they don't have that option so they have fewer possibilities to reset.  It's a difficult one and not easy to resolve, as Jurgen Klopp is finding out too.