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Author Topic: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts  (Read 2081 times)

Wombles

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Yesterday was a culmination of a process Eddie Jones started 18 months ago. We had that wonderful semis final against New Zealand where everything worked to a true exposure of the deficiencies in our play against South Africa not one week later. Eddies lack of a plan B and lack of developing a leadership group capable of thinking independently and adjusting to the threat and challenges the opposition provide was rudely laid bare. No one begrudged South Africas win despite our natural disappointment for losing the final. However equally there was hope that with our set up and with a coach of Eddies experience we would make strides forward to correct that which we failed upon in that final.

What has happened since was the polar opposite of what we hoped would occur. Eddie grew ever more introvert, rather than expanding and learning, he increasingly contracted our play and style. The backs became irrelevant beyond chasing up n under after up n unders. Good line out ball became a simple play of 9-10 and hoof. Eddie became obsessed with playing without the ball and on physicality only. Maybe 20 years ago this would of worked, yet with the advancements in the game this was a strategy that was doomed to failure. New Zealand still form the blueprint, with S.A not far behind. Teams need a solid foundation of defence and discipline, however you also need a effective and dangerous back line, a ability to turn defence into attack in a heartbeat, to play heads up rugby, to think independently, and also to treasure possession when it is hard fought for.....you cannot win games without the ball, yet Jones thought exactly the opposite.

However the above only works if you select the correct players and have a selection policy that reinforces this. All teams need a core leadership group, players that are first names on the teamsheet. However if those players are short of game time, of match fitness or not playing well their places should still be open to alternate selection options. This works on 2 levels;

1: You keep the door open for new players, you generate a pathway, a hope and a goal to aim for. You do not create complacency, and you do not demotivate those trying to breakthrough by creating favouritism. You generate competition where all players know they have to keep their standards high to keep the jersey, and that jersey and number continues to hold the reverence to which it deserves, and is felt by all those who wear it. Eddie Jones has destroyed this by picking players with neither form nor performance to justify selection, and the test side is NEVER the place to be finding this once again. Interestingly with regards to the huge honour of playing for England, on a tour of HQ for my birthday the tour guide said Eddie Jones simply sees the changing room as ‘the sheds’, this one fact exposes a deeper misunderstanding that he does not understand the psychology and environment required, thus taking away the privilege of what it truly means to play for England.

2: You engage the fan and support base. We are intelligent people -aside from those who had access to opposable thumbs and twitter last night to shamefully blast a reporter that asked questions most of us were thinking - and you bring us all together supporting the same goal. This support IS felt by the players and coaches, and equally supports those players and coaches trying to breakthough, reaffirming their drive to get in and be part of it. This agains drives standards higher still as you are selecting the very best. Once more Eddie Jones has not understood nor respected this. His negative style, more combative comments and frankly absurd sentences such as ‘selection is not important.....we are hiding our attacking game until the world cup so others cannot adjust to our style in time’ is far more divisive than unifying.

So we came to this tournament, England seem more a team circling the wagons, distancing more and more from the ethics and core components of the game where successful teams thrive. Discipline, ability, evolution, competition, style have all suffered as a consequence. And then the perfect storm occurred yesterday...we can hide behind questionable refereeing decisions -and that has a part to play- but it should not detract from the sequence of events that has led us to where we are. I ran into a fellow England fan walking yesterday, and like me he felt we would lose the game, and we both reflected the same dissociative signs of struggling to engage with our national team. We both felt performance and discipline were problems, and that we did not have the ability to adjust and overcome. Unfortunately our thoughts were born out. 18 months compressed into 80 minutes in Cardiff.

We are behind the proverbial 8 ball with a coach out of ideas, strong on dictatorial processes who puts favouritism before form. We are going backwards, and currently have a squad struggling to connect with its fanbase. If this path is continued to be followed we will be remembered more for butchering of opportunity than best team in the world.

mike909

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2021, 10:31:05 AM »
Good post that sets out many of the issues that I have with the current England set up. Jones seems to have an effect upon players such that they end up making worse decisions and failing to be the leaders they clearly are for their clubs, at the highest level. This could be seen clearly in the last part of the game yesterday - when having got back to 24 all, the team didn't have the intelligence to avoid pissing the ref off and allowed Wales an easy run in and win.

Too many players are in no form - the stats from yesterday show only Sinckler amongst the forward starters contributed much around the pitch and Ford didn't make any metres ball in hand - didn't even try......Basic decision making is poor and that core of undroppable Sarries players seems to be a heavy weight around the collective effort.

Add in token selections (Martin has fewer games for Tigers than Dombrandt has scored tries this season...) and you have someone who looks like he is taking the michael. Pretty much all of Jones' coaching stints have ended "oddly" with the word in a NZ article basically suggesting he loses the dressing room sooner or later....

Given England's massive advantages in players and resources - it is still a hard gig - SL's "only" failure was a RWC - all other measures he was right up there. Expectations are high. But to make England unlikeable and too often less than the sum of their parts just kills my interest in the team.

Rossm

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2021, 10:33:39 AM »
Good post, Wombles. England have shipped 41 penalties in the first 3 games of the tournament. 5 of yesterday's 14 were down to Itoje alone. He's now being watched more closely. Why he wasn't carded is beyond me. Though he's one of England's better players and plays right on the edge, as our tournament is done, drop him or at least bench him.
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wasps

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2021, 11:11:30 AM »


It's all largely irrelevant.
The press, pundits, coaches (and presumably the RFU) all while admitting that England lost, will refer to the 14 points that were scored by Wales due to questionable refereeing decisions.

Eddie will be able to convince that his England team would have beaten Wales if it hadn't been for that handicap and that therefore he is on the correct path


For me, it's still a selection issue. The spine of the team, and the majority of the leaders, all play for a club who fully believe that power and playing without the ball is the way forward.
They do not believe there's a need for a plan B because they've seen it work for them so many times.

Change the selection, change the mindset.
It'll never happen

hookender

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2021, 11:19:00 AM »
The annoying thing for me was I actually saw flashes of using the backs effectively. However, as we lost the game Jones can say it doesn’t work and go back to plan Eddie.

Shugs

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2021, 11:40:51 AM »
Agree with wasps. The single biggest thing an international coach has to get right is selection. Jones's swings from totally predictable to downright weird with no middle ground. Daly at 15 - a defensive liability. George - not effective any more. Youngs, Farrell, Ford = boredom. Then there is the bizarre. Martin, Odogwu, Barbeary etc etc.

matelot22

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Great post Wombles, sums up my thoughts exactly, couldn't agree with you more.

Rossm

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Interesting paragraph taken from an article in The Guardian:

If there is a recurring theme since England crashed and burned in the World Cup final, look no further. It hardly helps that Jones continues to hail Owen Farrell as an oval-ball messiah while referees tend to see him as a very naughty boy. If Gaüzère made life tougher for England, Farrell could easily have double checked whether Dan Biggar was kicking for goal before turning to address his troops. And, given what unfolded later on, did anyone actually listen to his lecture about not conceding needless penalties at key moments? When things go against England they have developed the costly habit of doubling down on their errors.

Full article here:

Time for Eddie Jones to consider changes to recalibrate England

The head coach needs to grasp a few awkward nettles and assess whether fresh playmakers would add zest and energy

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/28/time-for-eddie-jones-to-consider-changes-to-recalibrate-england
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hookender

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Perhaps old farts should say to Eddie ‘ you’ve got a couple of games with effectively nothing to go for.
 Use them to blood new players you bring in to squad but hardly give a game to’  they are probably the only ones who could alter his mindset.

 Can’t see it happening , but at least it would set us on road like France.

DGP Wasp

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Successive England coaches have tried to build a team around Farrell, playing a pretty simple power-based game that has worked at times, mainly on the rare occasions Manu has been fit.  It's pretty simple to coach, so returns results almost immediately.  Long term though it is just not working, and as other teams adapt, England continue to do the same thing over and over again.  I think Farrell is hugely over rated.  He does certain things well, but is incapable of playing what he sees, only what he knows.  Even his goal kicking which is often held up as one of his strengths is no better than could reasonably be expected of an international kicker.  As a captain he is just an accident waiting to happen and I think he really does get under some refs' skins, and is anything but cool headed when the pressure is on.  As a 10/12 he has blocked the way for other more naturally gifted players such as Cipriani and Smith as he seemingly only wants to play 12 if Ford's at 10 and if that isn't possible then he plays 10 himself.  Apart from Cips over in SA a couple of years back, what other 10 has been given any chance under Eddie or Lancaster before him?  If we have to take a step or two backwards in order to make significant strides forward then I'd swallow a season or 2 of experimentation and potentially disappointing results to get there. 

matelot22

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2021, 01:44:07 PM »
Perhaps old farts should say to Eddie ‘ you’ve got a couple of games with effectively nothing to go for.
 Use them to blood new players you bring in to squad but hardly give a game to’  they are probably the only ones who could alter his mindset.

 Can’t see it happening , but at least it would set us on road like France.

But selection isn't an issue, Eddie told us so..... ;D

mike909

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2021, 04:09:31 PM »
Successive England coaches have tried to build a team around Farrell, playing a pretty simple power-based game that has worked at times, mainly on the rare occasions Manu has been fit.  It's pretty simple to coach, so returns results almost immediately.  Long term though it is just not working, and as other teams adapt, England continue to do the same thing over and over again. 
You could see the same on Saturday with Billy......he was placed to receive kicked ball - he ran (slowly) back to usually a net loss of metres, Wales knew he would do nothing, and tackled him happily. Billy's stats from the England Rugby site show he did take the ball 8 times for 16m in total and made one pass......Wales (like anyone now) would know he's just going to run in a straight line.....Mako did very little either, Sinckler's numbers looked a lot better than either.

But England's wins vs the big teams have been when (as you note) Manu was available - though that didn't help vs SA when they weren't bothered....

Lwasp

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2021, 07:16:46 PM »
Sadly the RFU can't afford to bin Eddie. Best England can hope for is Eddie gets bored and asks to leave.

Shugs

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2021, 07:48:57 PM »
Yes, predictable is what we've become. An arrogance has crept in as well writ large in the displays of George and Daly (back to play as Wales scrum half went in).

Neils

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Re: 18 months after the Word cup final: Wales v England post match thoughts
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2021, 08:12:48 PM »
Yes, predictable is what we've become. An arrogance has crept in as well writ large in the displays of George and Daly (back to play as Wales scrum half went in).

Arrogance  = EAs. Something that pervades the squad and management
Let me tell you something cucumber