Preliminary hearing for JR2

[Marlovian]

CCC were charging £1.3m pa (I don't know what additional costs/benefits there were) which prompted the removal of CCFC to Northampton. The current arrangement is, I think, £100k pa with CCFC taking all ticket revenue plus a share of match day takings. Before negotiations broke down they were asking for (demanding) a similar deal but with all match day takings and a substantial share of none match day earnings.

I cannot how this is a fair deal for us in either the value of the rent or in the periphery extras. I believe Adams park was £100k 5 years ago and was about to be raised to £250k on the 1 January when we moved in the December. If I were to rent a house I would expect to pay market rates and wouldn't ask for a share of the landlords salary. Or would I?

As an aside, I was talking to one of the police at the Bath(?) game. He loved policing rugby as the fans were well behaved and friendly. He hated policing football for the exact opposite reasons and described himself as a "target" for bottles and glasses, not always empty. He also said it costs CCFC £106k pa for policing costs inside the ground (outside is not chargeable) and costs Wasps £0 as no policing is required.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

The whole point of mediation is to create a compromise. Wasps will likely have to change their stance, but so will SISU. I suspect the former is more likely.

[Rossm]

As an aside, I was talking to one of the police at the Bath(?) game. He loved policing rugby as the fans were well behaved and friendly. He hated policing football for the exact opposite reasons and described himself as a "target" for bottles and glasses, not always empty. He also said it costs CCFC £106k pa for policing costs inside the ground (outside is not chargeable) and costs Wasps £0 as no policing is required.


I don't disbelieve what you say but I don't understand how you can say you spoke to one of the police at the Bath (?) game yet then go on to say that Wasps pay nothing as no policing is required. Was he in fact off duty?
I can say from personal experience that the police at Loftus Road were far more likely to be in the crowd as spectators than as police on duty. The main complaint they had about rugby fans was when one of the Welsh teams visited and peed in peoples' front gardens when leaving the ground!

[Gaz]

This is the bit I am struggling to understand, surely it is up to Wasps who they do business with and the terms under which they want to do business. It is of no concern to the courts how they do that so ordering a mediation is a bit of a slap in the face to Wasps.

And it is not as simple as having confidence in the court and legal process otherwise Wasps would just stick to their original offer. Because this could potentially create a cloud of uncertainty over Wasps for the next few years then Wasps might be forced into a compromise position just for the sake of moving on. If Wasps haven't done anything wrong, then this is grossly unfair, and a small victory for SISU.

As I keep telling myself on my morning motorcycle commute into central London; it isn't a win/lose race, it's about getting to your destination in the most effective and efficient way possible.

[Rossm]

I really don't want to see CCFC being homeless. If somehow this can be resolved in the short to medium term then I don't have a problem with Wasps modifying their position. SISU are the snake in the grass and they would probably assume that any compromise on our part would simply be a sign of weakness. Whatever happens with the mediation, I think the judiciary would expect to see some genuine progress towards a solution by the end of the process as they clearly don't want to see this continue through the courts.

[Neils]

From what we have seen to date I fully agree that any change in Wasps position will certainly be taken by SISU as a victory. They will then push and push to get more and more. Wasps management need to be very firm in their previous resolve. This court visit just seems to have muddied the waters considerably.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Except that the judge said that the mediation should include an agreed end to all current matters and any possible future civil matters relating to the sale.

So, CCFC will want a lease for at least 5, if not 10 years from Wasps. They will want a break clause so that if they get their stadium before then, they can move on with maybe one seasons' notice. They will want all the matchday revenue.

Wasps will probably start with a one year offer, where we keep some of the matchday revenue. One immovable thing is that all action stops. The judges have made that a pre-condition. and this is mediation, not arbitration.

I have little doubt that CCFC HAD already got a site lined up, that the council have privately said would never get planning permission. CCFC will want that to change, insofar as such decisions can be done this way. There is a process that cannot be avoided, but with the council saying that they will support and back (non-monetarily) such an application, and would support CCFC in any applications to third parties for assistance in funding (like Sport England, Department of Transport, Regional Development Grants, etc).

From Wasps' POV, pretty much any price is worth removing the doubt over ownership and legal action, because development of the site, naming rights, sponsorship, are all on hold and probably costing Wasps north of £1m a year.

As CCFC haven't paid the costs awarded thus far, my guess is one of the conditions will be that all sides pay their own costs relating to JR1 and JR2 and the mediation.

[Marlovian]

Rossm, sorry, didn't make myself clear. Policing outside the stadium is provided as a crowd event. Policing inside the stadium has to be paid for by the club. Wasps require no internal policing, CCFC do. The policeman I spoke to was on duty outside, anti-stab vest, taser and all. Interesting to talk to.

[Trevs Big Tackle]

Even if as part of mediation SISU agrees to drop all court action can they be trusted not to restart the litigation, or start a new frivolous action, 2, 3, 5 years down the line?

Not sure I'd want them hanging around.

[Neils]

You can bet that Civil Action will follow. Might be easier for them to achieve some form of pay out. Really are leeches.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

The judge said that a mediation settlement had to irrevocably rule out any action relating to the sale and lease extension by all parties. I seem to recall reading that the CCFC/SISU lawyers agreed to this. What would happen is that mediation would result in a set of agreements that the judge said he would put into a formal ruling as the final settlement of the case. As such, CCFC would formally 'win' their case and the agreement is what they are awarded. The formal ruling would formally prohibit any further action. CCFC/SISU made this possible by changing their case.

[Neils]

CovTel article quotes CCFC lawyer quoted as saying they may take civil action at a later date. I assume his quote came after the court appearance.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

In the court hearing, he said that if they lost the JR, then they would consider civil action further down the line. The judge then told them they needed to mediate and settle to rule out any further action of any type.

Basically, he was saying the court was getting fed up with CCFC/SISU. The court can rule them as being Vexatious Litigants, and stop them from bringing further action. A rarely used (if ever) ruling, but it tarnishes both the litigant and their lawyers with the same brush. The lawyers then risk being barred. Reputational damage. Settle out of court, or else.

[Trevs Big Tackle]

Can the judge rule out any lawsuit SISU may want to start against Wasps and/or the Council? What if the Council stopped collecting SISU's bins? Are SISU not allowed to sue over that? I'm being ludicrous of course but with SISU, closing down one lawsuit doesn't mean they won't start another!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

No, it would be anything in relation to the sale of the arena and the extension of the lease, and probably an all-encompassing matters arising to date, but not the future.