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Author Topic: Summer tours  (Read 2209 times)

MarleyWasp

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Summer tours
« on: May 04, 2021, 08:33:37 AM »
It looks increasingly like England's summer tour will be to the glamorous location that is Twickenham, with USA coach, Gary Gold, confirming overnight that the USA will play England at Twickenham on 3rd July before heading to Dublin to face Ireland the Saturday after. (https://twitter.com/AlexCorbs/status/1389340500415586310?s=19). It's widely rumoured England will host Canada a week later.

England were due to tour the USA and Canada. Ireland called off their tour to Fiji last week due to a surge of Covid case in Fiji.

Wales were due to tour Uruguay and Argentina, however they are negotiating to host the matches in Wales due to Argentina being on the red list. Given most Argentine players are playing in Europe or Australia at the moment, I can see it happening.

Scotland are to travel to play Romania on 10th July and Georgia on 17th July.

France are playing a condensed three match series in Australia on 7th, 13th and 17th July.

Italy are due to tour New Zealand but nothing has been announced about that. Given NZ's quarantine rules and the Pro14 season finishing on 19th June, it'll be touch and go as to whether Italy have enough training time to play on 10th and 17th July.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 08:53:42 AM »
I think we should re-arrange the tours to go only to those countries who are well advanced in the vaccination and are likely to be green lighted by the government. So, tours to Israel, Portugal and Iceland anybody?

Or any of the following:

Malta, Finland, Gibraltar, Jamaica, Grenada, and the Cayman Islands

All well known for their rugby teams.

Shugs

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 12:34:38 PM »
Wouldn't it just make sense to cancel these tours this summer. Not one of the proposals looks like it could produce anything like a competitive scenario worth watching.

hookender

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 12:43:37 PM »
Wouldn't it just make sense to cancel these tours this summer. Not one of the proposals looks like it could produce anything like a competitive scenario worth watching.

Money.

 But also we have been talking about giving tier 2 /3 teams opportunities to play tier one countries so I’m happy for them to go ahead.

baldpaul101

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 03:22:49 PM »
Quote
Money.

You say that like its a bad thing?
The game needs some revenue desperately so any way of garnering some is a good idea IMO

hookender

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 04:10:10 PM »
Quote
Money.

You say that like its a bad thing?
The game needs some revenue desperately so any way of garnering some is a good idea IMO

Not saying it’s a bad thing , simply an answer to the question.  My interest in the summer games will be a chance for lower rated teams given a chance to be seen.

MarleyWasp

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 04:26:25 PM »
To give you an indication on hosting tests in North America, when I was in Canada three years ago I went to Canada v Scotland at the Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton. They had thirteen and a half thousand there and tickets were between $30-60. When you take out the cost of hiring a stadium and hosting Scotland, alongside putting their team in camp, there was probably not a lot of money left.

Had the match gone ahead in the USA, they'd have spent X hiring a stadium, charged $30-60 a ticket and sold maybe 8k at short notice. Max revenue $360k. Take out the cost of hiring a stadium and paying a fee to the RFU and they are easily in the red. This way, the RFU will probably sell enough tickets to raise £2.5m, split the money equally and both cover their costs and have a bit extra to spare. Given US Rugby filed for bankruptcy last year, it's not a bad result for them, and £1.25m is probably more than the RFU would have got going to North America.

Word is England are looking to finalise matches the week before and after. The week after will probably be Canada. Scotland are due to play an A international against opposition TBC in the last week of June so it may be England Saxons fulfilling that fixture.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 04:28:45 PM by MarleyWasp »

Shugs

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 07:21:43 PM »
Completely agree the game needs money. This is inevitably the driving force behind these tours. I'm not sure that is a good thing as the main reason. I'm also not sure vastly inferior teams playing vastly superior ones benefits the inferior. What will Italy achieve by getting repeatedly spanked in NZ? They'll arrive home with the same talent pool - which isn't good enough.

MarleyWasp

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 09:04:09 PM »
Completely agree the game needs money. This is inevitably the driving force behind these tours. I'm not sure that is a good thing as the main reason. I'm also not sure vastly inferior teams playing vastly superior ones benefits the inferior. What will Italy achieve by getting repeatedly spanked in NZ? They'll arrive home with the same talent pool - which isn't good enough.

I asked one of the Portuguese players who played against the All Blacks in 2007 whether he felt it was worthwhile. He said he learnt more in that 80 minutes then he'd done in 500 training sessions in Lisbon.

Shugs

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 10:36:57 PM »
But they simply don't have the players. Portugal could play the All Blacks every week and would still be nowhere near the level needed. There are far greater barriers to second tier nations (domestic infrastructure, lure of top tier teams) to be sorted. Until those issues and a myriad of others are sorted giving them the odd thrashing will not achieve anything.

MarleyWasp

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 11:19:46 PM »
Portugal's attitude in that match was that they wanted to fulfill two goals:
1) Score points against the All Blacks.
2) Avoid losing by 100 points

They scored 13 points and only lost by 95, earnt the respect of the All Blacks, beat them in football that evening and even managed to have one tactic that still left Graham Henry confused four years later. It was treated like a win and 10,000 people turned up at the airport to welcome the team home. Most crucially, a similar number of children started playing rugby in the next few months.

The problem they faced is that the 2007 squad were reaching the end of their generation and there weren't the players of the right quality to back it up, leading to a decline in results from 2009 to 2019, however things have changed since then. The generation of kids introduced to the sport started to reach an age where they could play at U20 level, a they are an extremely talented group.

From 2017 onwards, Portugal have comfortably been the best U20 sides outside of the 6 Nations and Georgia, coming close to qualifying for the World Rugby U20 Championship. Had it not been for Covid cancelling 2020 and 2021 I'd feel confident Portugal would be in the senior U20 competition this year. The 2017/18 generation are now braking into the national side who are performing as well as any Portuguese side has done for 10+ years.

No nation will go from losing every match to contending for a Rugby World Cup overnight. It'll take 30-50 years before a nation like Portugal can produce a stream of world class players. If you deprive Tier 2 and Tier 3 nations of all matches against Tier 1 nations it simply won't happen.

So going back to that match 13+ years ago, whilst you saw a 108-13 thrashing, Portugal's players saw it as mission accomplished. The players became heroes and inspired a generation, which if given the opportunity will inspire the next generation to even better things.

Shugs

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2021, 07:01:58 AM »
I take your point. I just don't see any evidence of any realistic shift in power in either NH or SH. I don't think the odd tour solves it. We have an opportunity in the NH as I think relegation from the 6N should be considered if you finish bottom in 3 consecutive tournaments. I'm completely for the development of lower tier nations but more radical steps are needed if they are to seriously compete.

Heathen

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2021, 07:16:58 AM »
Watching Lee's video posted yesterday, I just hope from purely a R&R perspective that none of our players get involved in Summer tours (or whatever competitions are held in the UK).

After the Final last season they only had two weeks off before going straight into preseason.

Some must be running on empty already.

MarleyWasp

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2021, 09:18:01 AM »
I take your point. I just don't see any evidence of any realistic shift in power in either NH or SH. I don't think the odd tour solves it. We have an opportunity in the NH as I think relegation from the 6N should be considered if you finish bottom in 3 consecutive tournaments. I'm completely for the development of lower tier nations but more radical steps are needed if they are to seriously compete.

Georgia went from failing to qualify in 1999 to winning two matches in 2015 and securing automatic qualification for 2019. Their U20 side have been a regular fixture of the WR U20 Championship since 2016 and that generation are now breaking into the national side, with several players securing contracts with British clubs.

The USA went on the best run of wins in their history prior to 2019. They now have a professional league with several big name players involved.

These are big steps forward to improving the national sides, but like I say it won't happen overnight.

andermt

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Re: Summer tours
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2021, 11:58:10 AM »
Taking the Tier 1 vs Tier 2 there needs to be a shift in who the Tier 1 nations play, and where.

I pulled together a list a while back, using data from an article in 2015 about how many Tier 2/3 nations the Tier 1 teams have played, and how many they have played away from home, the list doesn't include RWC matches as these are not really by choice.
This is all going to get messed up in formatting I guess, it works on my screen but may not on a phone..

This was the list from 2015

                  vs Tier 2   @ Tier 2
Italy             20                   8
Wales           13                  4
Scotland        13                  4
Ireland          10                  4
France            9                  1
NZ                  6                  3
England           5                 0
Australia          4                 1
Argentina         3                 0
South Africa     3                 0


This is the updated list as of today.

                  vs Tier 2   @ Tier 2
Italy                 31            13
Scotland           24             10
Wales               19              6
Ireland             17              7
Argentina          15             6
France               13             1
England             9              0
NZ                    8               4
Australia            7              2
South Africa       4              1


Some big differences in the last 5 years, Argentina now has the ARC which has resulted in a lot of games home and away against Tier 2/3 nations like USA, Canada, Brazil, Chile etc, as they had played very few before then

The glaring omission is still the fact England haven't played against a Tier 2/3 nation away from England, and whilst some numbers look quite good for teams it's really dependant on where, for example most of the Ireland games have been in the USA/Canada/Japan. Italy & Scotland are the 2 Tier 1s actually going out to play these teams, with Scotland planning to go to Romania & Georgia this summer, which would add to these numbers.


This is a link to the original 2015 article.
https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/which-tier-1-nations-play-their-part-in-supporting-tier-2-rugby/