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Author Topic: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory  (Read 1300 times)

Rossm

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Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2021, 09:25:30 AM »
Quote
With their first opportunity to showcase the progress that has been made, Bristol were limited to just one try scored by prop Max Lahiff as the likes of Charles Piutau and Nathan Hughes were largely kept in check.

As I said on the match thread, I thought Piutau looked really good and the boys did well to keep him under control. They must have been pleased to see him substituted*.

I've thought for some time that Hughes is trading on reputation and hasn't been the threat he used to be in his early years for some time now. I'm not sure he'd be a regular starter if he came back.

*It didn't get discussed in commentary and he didn't look injured. I wondered if Pat Lam had decided they'd lost the game and he was going to protect him?

Rossm

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 10:03:11 AM »
Think afterwards, I found it remarkable that we nilled them in the second half.
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Raggs

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 11:53:07 AM »
Piutau is a crazy carrier. Combined with Radradra, Bristol can win games off the back of the two of them alone. Losing Malins will have hurt a bit though.

Hughes was always most effective targeting the midfield/edges, rather than running at other lumps. But he gets moved into running at lumps because he's not bad at it. Workrate is a question too. I view Hughes a bit like Dombrandt, but Dombrandt seems to be a bit smarter spotting opportunities than Hughes was.

Chunky24

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2021, 12:15:13 PM »
Obviously with out Semi they are not the same team but more importantly his presence allows Piers O'connor to play 12 and i think they always look better with him there as they can move to those edges more effectively to release likes of Piutau and Hughes

mike909

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2021, 01:24:40 PM »
Hughes was always most effective targeting the midfield/edges, rather than running at other lumps. But he gets moved into running at lumps because he's not bad at it. Workrate is a question too. I view Hughes a bit like Dombrandt, but Dombrandt seems to be a bit smarter spotting opportunities than Hughes was.

I might well be latching onto other's comments, but I always felt that Hughes went from probably better than Billy, in the round, to being ineffective too often, in the period he was being played by England. And played - if rumour is correct- when not exactly 100% fit. Why that should in the longer  term affect what he does or aims to do is more of a question that remains unanswered. He is better in the wider channels, I thought he was good for us doing that.

As for Dombrandt, he seemed to draw the dismay of England's coaching team for almost being too versatile. I think he's got a rep for not doing the hard yards - but like Simmonds at 8, he works best in a back row that's a team which fits. I think England especially, have been guilty of wanting players to shoehorn into how the overall England pattern is - regardless. Simmonds at Exeter is best in a backrow including some serious size at flanker.....

But if I was Pat Lam and my bosses were paying Hughes serious money - I'd really be wanting more delivered by the player. The failure seems both at player and coaching level.

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2021, 01:48:47 PM »
Changing the law to stop Hughes’ party trick of reading right in to the scrum and then charging over the scrum half didn’t help him either. 

Raggs

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2021, 01:55:11 PM »
Hughes was always most effective targeting the midfield/edges, rather than running at other lumps. But he gets moved into running at lumps because he's not bad at it. Workrate is a question too. I view Hughes a bit like Dombrandt, but Dombrandt seems to be a bit smarter spotting opportunities than Hughes was.

I might well be latching onto other's comments, but I always felt that Hughes went from probably better than Billy, in the round, to being ineffective too often, in the period he was being played by England. And played - if rumour is correct- when not exactly 100% fit. Why that should in the longer  term affect what he does or aims to do is more of a question that remains unanswered. He is better in the wider channels, I thought he was good for us doing that.

As for Dombrandt, he seemed to draw the dismay of England's coaching team for almost being too versatile. I think he's got a rep for not doing the hard yards - but like Simmonds at 8, he works best in a back row that's a team which fits. I think England especially, have been guilty of wanting players to shoehorn into how the overall England pattern is - regardless. Simmonds at Exeter is best in a backrow including some serious size at flanker.....

But if I was Pat Lam and my bosses were paying Hughes serious money - I'd really be wanting more delivered by the player. The failure seems both at player and coaching level.

I think Billy is better suited to international level over both.

Hughes could use his size and ability to just wave the ball in one hand, to go through the midfield, his pace, whilst not winger like, was enough to capitalise on the break. Dombrandt picks his lines exceptionally well, and has good pace and good hands, but I feel like sometimes he's too busy waiting for the right moment, and relying on others to create those moments through the slower harder carries (Tom Willis is a great example of someone who's willing to run into brick walls to create space for others).

I think people misunderstand Billy's role, especially after the fireworks he used to create long ago. When I was doing ruck marks on games, it's surprising just how many turnovers come from half breaks. The support are surprised and the defence are usually quicker to scramble, since the half break is more vital than the attack setting up next phase (running for your lunch vs running for your life situation). Billy doesn't have the pace to make full breaks very often, and more importantly, he's never given the space to. Where Billy is insane is that he still usually bends the defence and sucks in the defenders.

This matters, especially as the ruck has got faster, but also often a quicker reward for a good jackaller, who no longer has to survive a million clearouts to get his reward. In the last 6N, our kicking game was just poor, Scotland absolutely smashed us in the kicking game. We adapted by using Billy in the backfield to run it up rather than trying to win the kicking game. He was never meant to make a break, he was meant to target 2 big defenders (or 3), and run at them, knocking them back in the impact. They would wait for him to come more often than not also. This gave our support time to get behind BV, and significantly, when he's tackled, it takes 2-3, which nearly always meant bodies on the floor in the way, unable to roll away quickly enough, so there's no opportunity for the jackal. A less effective carrier would have been isolated and turned over repeatedly.

It doesn't look flash, it doesn't look effective, but it's massively useful to a side to have a player like that.

MarleyWasp

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2021, 02:17:21 PM »
I suspect Nathan is enjoying the culinary and nightlife delights of Bristol a bit too much. Easily done and I speak from experience.

mike909

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2021, 04:17:04 PM »
Raggs - many thanks for the reply. I think my problem is that 2020 Billy (certainly Autumn Cup) was fit and getting around pretty well and worked within the parameters that England were using

In 2021, he was off the pace and that "adaptation" to trucking the ball back looked a lot like a lack of ideas about what to do with a more or less fixed squad and an off the pace Billy. Scotland seemed to like Billy trundling back from memory as it mean they knew where the breakdown was going to be - and rarely in front of the gain line. Scotland did win the kicking game, but looking at England's own stats, we kicked twice as often proportionately towards a back three v comfortable ball in hand, and made zero clean breaks.....and were lucky not to concede a lot more.

I think we'll see Billy back if the lean and fit number 8 we saw vs Briz last week continues to turn up as he does offer a lot and draws in players. I do think that the WR guidance issued on the breakdown will advantage players more able to get support quickly to the ball. And quicker ball will tend towards a wider use of that ball. It will be interesting to see if Billy fits with that - if officiated per WR. Tom W has shown yesterday that pace is a more than useful currency in an 8 and may be more effective as turnovers are achieved using pace to the tackle.

Raggs

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2021, 04:37:45 PM »
Raggs - many thanks for the reply. I think my problem is that 2020 Billy (certainly Autumn Cup) was fit and getting around pretty well and worked within the parameters that England were using

In 2021, he was off the pace and that "adaptation" to trucking the ball back looked a lot like a lack of ideas about what to do with a more or less fixed squad and an off the pace Billy. Scotland seemed to like Billy trundling back from memory as it mean they knew where the breakdown was going to be - and rarely in front of the gain line. Scotland did win the kicking game, but looking at England's own stats, we kicked twice as often proportionately towards a back three v comfortable ball in hand, and made zero clean breaks.....and were lucky not to concede a lot more.

I think we'll see Billy back if the lean and fit number 8 we saw vs Briz last week continues to turn up as he does offer a lot and draws in players. I do think that the WR guidance issued on the breakdown will advantage players more able to get support quickly to the ball. And quicker ball will tend towards a wider use of that ball. It will be interesting to see if Billy fits with that - if officiated per WR. Tom W has shown yesterday that pace is a more than useful currency in an 8 and may be more effective as turnovers are achieved using pace to the tackle.

I don't think we ran Billy as a kick return against Scotland, which was the problem, their kicks were far better than ours. If I recall correctly we started using him there after losing the kicking game in the first 2 rounds and realising we need to adapt.

He's certainly not a dynamic 8, but he offers something that very few others do. If we can improve our kicking game, then we'd need that ability to just grind it up a lot less, and could use someone with other strengths.

I don't think he's untouchable by any means, but I think if people don't see him (not necessarily you etc) making massive busts, they see Dombrandt doing it at club level, and think Billy is unfit/not performing.

mike909

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Re: What pleased Lee the most about emphatic Bristol Bears victory
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2021, 06:14:07 PM »
I'm probably wrong! I did think we ran the ball aimlessly vs Scotland with Billy deep - but it doesn't matter really when! A fit Billy, does everything the side needs. Last season, he wasn't sharp or it seems fit.....But his first game was the full 80 and he was effective. It may be a tactic that Jones gets right!

Scotland and kicking - we had one third possession and kicked the same number of times and badly as you say and it seemed from memory - mainly because we didn't provide ourselves with any options.....Lawrence at 12 didn't receive one pass...And their backrow was all over like a rash.