No Wasps for England

[mike909]

Jones is a brilliant coach - and that's been seen any number of times - he's the coach I'd want to win a game for my life (so to speak) But like most coaches - he's had some spectacular failures, like the end of his period in charge of Australia - losing 8 or 9 and getting sacked, his period with the Reds and in the reality of being England coach, in two 5th place finishes in the 6Ns and a 6 game losing streak in 2018.

It may not be fair, but England are expected to be top 2 in the 6Ns and last 4 of the RWC. It was the latter that got Lancaster the heave, not his win ratio in the 6Ns. Which was better than Jones'

And yes - the game moves on - it seemed that England were behind the curve on ruck and speed but the losses to especially Scotland and Ireland last season were not close or down to fine margins - they were surely down to selecting the wrong players and playing the wrong tactics. The other 6Ns teams used the Autumn Cup to try out new players and ways of playing - in a low risk tournament - with England carrying on with the RWC group of players.

I 100% concede rugby is often down to fine margins  - but the WR guidance on reffing and the ruck was not hidden from view. England's 2021 wasn't down to fine margins. And looking to blood new players now, does seem like a reaction to what the RFU must have said. If they thought the 2021 6Ns needed a review then it indicates not all was well with England. The question being why?

[hopwood]

Jones is a brilliant coach - and that's been seen any number of times - he's the coach I'd want to win a game for my life (so to speak) But like most coaches - he's had some spectacular failures, like the end of his period in charge of Australia - losing 8 or 9 and getting sacked, his period with the Reds and in the reality of being England coach, in two 5th place finishes in the 6Ns and a 6 game losing streak in 2018.

It may not be fair, but England are expected to be top 2 in the 6Ns and last 4 of the RWC. It was the latter that got Lancaster the heave, not his win ratio in the 6Ns. Which was better than Jones'

And yes - the game moves on - it seemed that England were behind the curve on ruck and speed but the losses to especially Scotland and Ireland last season were not close or down to fine margins - they were surely down to selecting the wrong players and playing the wrong tactics. The other 6Ns teams used the Autumn Cup to try out new players and ways of playing - in a low risk tournament - with England carrying on with the RWC group of players.

I 100% concede rugby is often down to fine margins  - but the WR guidance on reffing and the ruck was not hidden from view. England's 2021 wasn't down to fine margins. And looking to blood new players now, does seem like a reaction to what the RFU must have said. If they thought the 2021 6Ns needed a review then it indicates not all was well with England. The question being why?

Hey Mike.
You start by saying Eddie Jones is a brilliant coach...and end by asking why all is not well with England.
I think, personally, that Eddie can be good for sides for short periods of time (maybe a few years) to dramatically shift minds, change attitudes and improve output.
Unfortunately, the style he does this in can only be maintained for a few years, before his extremely obsessional ways move from being quirky and effective...to tiresome and exhausting...for everyone.
The fun disappears, Eddie chooses to blame others when results don't stack up, he becomes over-controlling, sticks with his loyal favourites and gets more and more stubborn, guarded and belligerent as things go against him.
He wants everything around him to change - rather than realising its him that needs to change, to develop, to grow and even to soften. To relinquish some control.

That's why just about all his support staff have left him and moved on.
It's not a fun atmosphere.
It's all way too intense and overly-controlled by Eddie and his obsessional style.
He needs to hand over more responsibility to the players - if indeed he wants them to make better decisions on-field.
He needs to encourage them to play what's in front of them....rather than always what's in the playbook.
He needs to have faith in younger players - that they CAN step-up and fill a void without 3 years of prior squad experience.
Look at Ollie Robinson this summer in the cricket - because of covid and injuries - steps in and now looks our most accomplished bowler.

I don't think Eddie is a brilliant coach.
I think he can be effective for a few years, whilst people tolerate his style and abrasive ways.
But if he was a truly great coach - he would be able to adapt his mindset, his beliefs, his ways...and grow like everyone around him.
But he just seems so cemented into his own identity, his ego, that I don't think he has the contrition to change. Nor the desire to do so.


John Mitchell, on the other hand. Now there's a story of a guy who has adapted and grown...and dropped the bits that weren't working.

[westwaleswasp]

........  the laugh is for Westwaleswasp.

Hopefully laughing with me, although I will take laughing at me as better than nothing...

[Rossm]

........  the laugh is for Westwaleswasp.

Hopefully laughing with me, although I will take laughing at me as better than nothing...

There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
Oscar Wilde.

[westwaleswasp]

Indeed. Frankly Oscar Wilde would pick a better 9 than Youngs.

I do see that Jones is brilliant in the way Jose M is   in the round ball game. Very similar in some ways, abrasive, witty, extremely good in the short term, but with no long term planning and a tendency to be an arse when things do not go their way and a propensity for stubbornness.

If you were a struggling team with relegation worries, Jones would be an ideal coach. If you were looking to develop, not so much.

My feeling is some of those selections are to challenge those he wants to pick. I think he does not want to challenge at 9, he knows what he wants, and Youngs has it in spades.

[Wombles]

My concern is that Jones has some of the most phenomenal talent available to him, and teams in the premiership that are evolving their game to provide some scintillating rugby, yet I am not currently convinced that he is a coach that has the ability to realise that potential. Jones seems to be far to autocratic, he seems to have a need to retain absolute control. Yet for me a good leader is someone who empowers others to realise their potential, imbeds teamwork and team ethos into their sides, and gives them every chance and opportunity to develop into players and a team that leads rather than is led.
The last 6 nations and some things over the last few years makes me question this...granted i am on the outside looking in, but his teams seem to play by numbers, to a set plan, and I have yet to see evidence of a team leading and adjusting to overcome the challenges they face. We need to see this in this Autumn Internationals and also the 6 Nations! 

[mike909]

Hey Mike.
You start by saying Eddie Jones is a brilliant coach...and end by asking why all is not well with England.
I think, personally, that Eddie can be good for sides for short periods of time (maybe a few years) to dramatically shift minds, change attitudes and improve output.
Unfortunately, the style he does this in can only be maintained for a few years, before his extremely obsessional ways move from being quirky and effective...to tiresome and exhausting...for everyone.
The fun disappears, Eddie chooses to blame others when results don't stack up, he becomes over-controlling, sticks with his loyal favourites and gets more and more stubborn, guarded and belligerent as things go against him.
He wants everything around him to change - rather than realising its him that needs to change, to develop, to grow and even to soften. To relinquish some control.

That's why just about all his support staff have left him and moved on.
It's not a fun atmosphere.
It's all way too intense and overly-controlled by Eddie and his obsessional style.
He needs to hand over more responsibility to the players - if indeed he wants them to make better decisions on-field.
He needs to encourage them to play what's in front of them....rather than always what's in the playbook.
He needs to have faith in younger players - that they CAN step-up and fill a void without 3 years of prior squad experience.
Look at Ollie Robinson this summer in the cricket - because of covid and injuries - steps in and now looks our most accomplished bowler.

I don't think Eddie is a brilliant coach.
I think he can be effective for a few years, whilst people tolerate his style and abrasive ways.
But if he was a truly great coach - he would be able to adapt his mindset, his beliefs, his ways...and grow like everyone around him.
But he just seems so cemented into his own identity, his ego, that I don't think he has the contrition to change. Nor the desire to do so.


John Mitchell, on the other hand. Now there's a story of a guy who has adapted and grown...and dropped the bits that weren't working.

Fair enough - probably badly worded. I do think you can be a brilliant coach - but not necessarily one that's for the long term. Hence my "game for my life" comment.

But the rest of what you suggest ties in with the comments from various sources about working with and being coached by Jones. He struggle to move on from his own version of what's happening  - c.f. issues around the ruck and England last 6Ns. But no, not for the long term. 

[wasps]

I suspect the 2003 version of Eddie Jones with his total rugby philosophy, and run everything approach would have been exactly what this board is crying out for.

[hopwood]

My concern is that Jones has some of the most phenomenal talent available to him, and teams in the premiership that are evolving their game to provide some scintillating rugby

And therein lies the frustration with so many England fans.
Such a rich period of available talent, yet playing such a limited gameplan.

The cost of going to Twickenham is pretty astronomical these days, to watch 80 minutes of rugby.
Let alone subscription fees etc.
You’d hope they would show more ambition.

[wasps]

Unfortunately, all that scintillating attacking rugby will count for nothing if/when Saracens steamroller teams with their power game.

There's typically a formula that England teams play with, and Jones isn't really any different.
You find the biggest, strongest set of forwards you can. Ideally, you blend in a dynamic and powerful back row.
You find a kicker who keeps the score board moving.
You try to play no mistake rugby and play in the right areas.
If you can add more power in centre or wing positions, great.... If not, just make sure they can tackle.




I'm not sure I can remember many England teams in the last 20 years that didn't follow that approach.

There was one or 2 games where we might have tried to use Ryan Lamb or Shane Geraghty.... Or maybe Cipriani in the early'ish days...
But on the whole, it's always seemed to be big forwards, reliable kicking and the rest is a bit makeshift