10.

[mike909]

I think some posters are being overly harsh on Jacob. Yes, he had a bad(dish) game, but remember he scored 2 tries, one of which was a great piece of opportunism. Some of his kicking from hand was sublime - an early penalty touch finder I remember in particular. Yes, he missed some vital place kicks - if he'd been as reliable as Hastings we might have won. His passing was wayward and he dropped too many balls. I think the Josh/Booj centre experiment completely disrupted our backs, both in defence and attack. Personally, if you really wanted to try Josh at 13, then I'd have had Jimmy start which would also have taken the pressure off Jacob's place kicking. Also he didn't have Dobby at SH. I think a few SH snipes might have kept Glos on their toes around the breakdown. I'm sure the late withdrawals of Marcus and Ali in particular must have further disrupted our preparation. For all his spirit, I don't think Matteo (sadly) added anything much. It was a miserable, icy Friday night. Nobody seems to wear gloves or mittens, though Hastings had the tips of his fingers and thumbs taped. Why not have little pockets/flaps on the jersey a la NFL?

It's so easy to jump on the back of a player - some posters seem to revel in it. Did it start with Nicky Robinson or did someone else cop it earlier?

+1 I don't think some people allow for just how disruptive yet another centre pairing might be - probably the same as a new/late hooker replacement for me as an old LH...However good you might be, it's in many ways familiarity under game pressure that makes for combinations working. And a lot of what seems to be good (for example) fly half play is often down to who it playing next to you. And I think we also look to play with a second 5/8th at either 12 or 15  - Jimmy recently, Beale, Le Roux and others at 15.

Last night it was a makeshift centre partnership, a 15 brought in from travelling reserves (so likely not 100%) and no one else to be even a "proto" second receiver. Booj had an off game too - I've warmed to him and his commitment - but it's the sort of situation that might make Beauden Barrett look ordinary.

So with one of the best game managers in the squad - that can be built on - but the upsides of fair and the like, need to be kept and we'll get the "product" we're looking for.

[HDAWG]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

[wasps]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

And George Ford has been essentially the number 1 fly half for England in that time.

Not being quite as good as the best in the country is very different from not being good enough for a top 4 club team.


Jacob needs to improve on various areas of his game to silence most of the doubters.... But every player should always be looking to improve their game all the time

[Chunky24]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

Ford was playing fly half from very early on in his career, England u18s upwards (picked age 15) while as I mentioned previously until his arrival at Wasps most of Jacobs senior and age group rugby was at 12/15 so not necessarily an exact comparison in terms of playing experience in that position.

[backdoc]

However bad Jacob was during the game yesterday, he still came back and scored two tries for the team at the end to put us within a score of winning.

That says something about him.

[Shugs]

I don’t take any pleasure at all in singling out an individual for criticism but in such a pivotal role I think it’s a debate worth having. I like Umaga and lots of what he does is exceptional. But by the same yardstick for as long as he’s been in the team we’ve had to swallow some complete howlers and just that lack of basics sometimes. I’m not advocating in any way that we discard or even replace him. I just think he needs someone snapping at his heels to focus the mind. That has a cash implication and we must be realistic about that as well. The likely answer is we go on as we are.

[Covkid40]

I am going to maybe be unpopular. I think Jacob will develop. Sure, he will have his off days. Very few 10s don't. Chalk it off as that and move on. Let the lad mull it over and look to do better. In our hearts of hearts, we fans all know this season is a wash for Wasps, so let's use it for development. Go in to each match to see what the good things we do can be, and to enjoy playing.

I do agree, there are some players who surely cannot get a new contract, but not based on one or two games.

Problem is he’s have more off days than on days. How many off days do you chalk off before you admit it’s not working, nobody can say he doesn’t produce some magic moments in attack on occasions but it’s he’s basics as a 10 that worry me, poor under the high ball when challenged, far too many knock ons, less than average at best from the tee, light weight in the tackle and kicks from hand in open play are 50% on the money and 50% hoping for a bit of good luck

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

And George Ford has been essentially the number 1 fly half for England in that time.

Not being quite as good as the best in the country is very different from not being good enough for a top 4 club team.


Jacob needs to improve on various areas of his game to silence most of the doubters.... But every player should always be looking to improve their game all the time

Ford isn't the best in the country. That is Smith by a country mile. Smith who is younger than Umaga.

[wasps]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

And George Ford has been essentially the number 1 fly half for England in that time.

Not being quite as good as the best in the country is very different from not being good enough for a top 4 club team.


Jacob needs to improve on various areas of his game to silence most of the doubters.... But every player should always be looking to improve their game all the time

Ford isn't the best in the country. That is Smith by a country mile. Smith who is younger than Umaga.

I had meant when ford was 23 as that was the age comparison that HDAWG was referring to.


Right now, I agree with you that Smith should be the only player wearing 10 for England.
Umaga is then behind Ford and presumably Farrell, and I wouldn't want to second guess how Eddie sees the rest of the hierarchy.


But my point was that it's not always about having the best fly half in the country, and those comparisons aren't always apples with apples.
We need umaga to improve, particularly on days where it's cold, where we don't have a dominant platforms and when we don't have first choice partnerships around him

[HDAWG]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

And George Ford has been essentially the number 1 fly half for England in that time.

Not being quite as good as the best in the country is very different from not being good enough for a top 4 club team.


Jacob needs to improve on various areas of his game to silence most of the doubters.... But every player should always be looking to improve their game all the time

Ford isn't the best in the country. That is Smith by a country mile. Smith who is younger than Umaga.

I had meant when ford was 23 as that was the age comparison that HDAWG was referring to.


Right now, I agree with you that Smith should be the only player wearing 10 for England.
Umaga is then behind Ford and presumably Farrell, and I wouldn't want to second guess how Eddie sees the rest of the hierarchy.


But my point was that it's not always about having the best fly half in the country, and those comparisons aren't always apples with apples.
We need umaga to improve, particularly on days where it's cold, where we don't have a dominant platforms and when we don't have first choice partnerships around him

That's a fair point, but Umaga has been like this for over 2 seasons. And my point was the form of players early in their careers is indicative of their form in their prime, generally. Maybe I'm just jealous Quins have Smith (and more recently Loz doing great things at 10 for Sarries).

 This being Jacobs third season I don't see him getting more mature in his playing, I see the opposite. It's difficult, not having Dan, injuries to players etc. But he needs to develop that maturity and at this point I'd expect to see it, hence the comparison to Ford.

And if Umaga hasn't had enough experience at 10 and still needs to develop why don't we sign an experienced 10/12 form him to lean on when Gopperth retires? He desperately needs it. Umaga Atkinson and Matthews all being young and inexperienced, just leaves a bit to be desired for when we need experience. At least with 9 we have Dan.

[Chunky24]

I mean maybe he'll get better. 5 years ago Ford was his age and he was more accomplished and savvy as a fly half. But Ford had notoriously bad days. Still looked a lot better at that age than Umaga does at this age... it's a difficult one.

And George Ford has been essentially the number 1 fly half for England in that time.

Not being quite as good as the best in the country is very different from not being good enough for a top 4 club team.


Jacob needs to improve on various areas of his game to silence most of the doubters.... But every player should always be looking to improve their game all the time

Ford isn't the best in the country. That is Smith by a country mile. Smith who is younger than Umaga.

I had meant when ford was 23 as that was the age comparison that HDAWG was referring to.


Right now, I agree with you that Smith should be the only player wearing 10 for England.
Umaga is then behind Ford and presumably Farrell, and I wouldn't want to second guess how Eddie sees the rest of the hierarchy.


But my point was that it's not always about having the best fly half in the country, and those comparisons aren't always apples with apples.
We need umaga to improve, particularly on days where it's cold, where we don't have a dominant platforms and when we don't have first choice partnerships around him

That's a fair point, but Umaga has been like this for over 2 seasons. And my point was the form of players early in their careers is indicative of their form in their prime, generally. Maybe I'm just jealous Quins have Smith (and more recently Loz doing great things at 10 for Sarries).

 This being Jacobs third season I don't see him getting more mature in his playing, I see the opposite. It's difficult, not having Dan, injuries to players etc. But he needs to develop that maturity and at this point I'd expect to see it, hence the comparison to Ford.

And if Umaga hasn't had enough experience at 10 and still needs to develop why don't we sign an experienced 10/12 form him to lean on when Gopperth retires? He desperately needs it. Umaga Atkinson and Matthews all being young and inexperienced, just leaves a bit to be desired for when we need experience. At least with 9 we have Dan.

Possible that experienced 10/12 to share the pressure on Umaga was meant to be Ryan Mills.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Let's face it, if our 10 can only shine while playing alongside the best 9 in the league then they aren't a great first choice 10.

[Shugs]

Agreed. We can’t only judge him or expect performances when everything is exactly right - not least because that might never happen. I thought the contrast between him and Hastings was really interesting last night. Hastings is an international but he’s not an exceptional 10. But he steered Glaws around the park, kicked well (at least contestable) and more noticeably just did the basics better than Umaga did. Umaga just needs a little bit more of that in his game.

[wasps]

Let's face it, if our 10 can only shine while playing alongside the best 9 in the league then they aren't a great first choice 10.

That's a fair comment.

But it's not just Robson missing is it?
We're arguably at 3rd choice scrum half, a 3rd/4th choice inside centre (who has admittedly improved recently), an outside centre who is a winger, and a winger who is a scrum half.
As I understand it (I didn't see the game yesterday) our pack was also going backwards.



Obviously those excuses only go so far and eventually you have to stand up and play well even when things are going against you.

Maybe it's because I've felt that some of the previous praise for him has been overhyped, but I see a relatively young fly half who has good days and bad days, but ultimately be wants to play good attractive, attacking rugby - i.e. the Wasps way.
I'll therefore maybe cut him a bit more slack than others will on his bad days

[backdoc]

Let's face it, if our 10 can only shine while playing alongside the best 9 in the league then they aren't a great first choice 10.

For his successful years Alex King had the best 9's in the league - Howley, Dawson, Reddan.
Before then Friday and Gomersall were pretty good too.
He never had a Porter or Wolstenholme at that stage of their careers. When Howley was out it was Richards.

The issue to me is not the 9.

It is the scrum.