This pair is on fire!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

.....  and does anyone know why the two recent England coaches chose to leave the England regime and go elsewhere , ie Wasps?  Just a genuine question.

Mitchell was quoted  - John Mitchell said he left his role as England defence coach because he wanted to return to club rugby and due to the difficulties of working under COVID-19 restrictions, not because of a fall out with head coach Eddie Jones.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/john-mitchell-england-wasps-rugby-22404167

As for Ed - no idea.

Mitchell was lying. The truth would have hurt him, so one cannot blame him for doing so.

[Rossm]

.....  and does anyone know why the two recent England coaches chose to leave the England regime and go elsewhere , ie Wasps?  Just a genuine question.

Mitchell was quoted  - John Mitchell said he left his role as England defence coach because he wanted to return to club rugby and due to the difficulties of working under COVID-19 restrictions, not because of a fall out with head coach Eddie Jones.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/john-mitchell-england-wasps-rugby-22404167

As for Ed - no idea.

Mitchell was lying. The truth would have hurt him, so one cannot blame him for doing so.

That's a bit strong, Nelly. Let's just say Mitch was being diplomatic

[NellyWellyWaspy]

.....  and does anyone know why the two recent England coaches chose to leave the England regime and go elsewhere , ie Wasps?  Just a genuine question.

Mitchell was quoted  - John Mitchell said he left his role as England defence coach because he wanted to return to club rugby and due to the difficulties of working under COVID-19 restrictions, not because of a fall out with head coach Eddie Jones.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/john-mitchell-england-wasps-rugby-22404167

As for Ed - no idea.

Mitchell was lying. The truth would have hurt him, so one cannot blame him for doing so.

That's a bit strong, Nelly. Let's just say Mitch was being diplomatic

Yeah, OK. Wait for his autobiography tell all. Diplomats can be extremely economical with the truth.

[mike909]

.....  and does anyone know why the two recent England coaches chose to leave the England regime and go elsewhere , ie Wasps?  Just a genuine question.

Mitchell was quoted  - John Mitchell said he left his role as England defence coach because he wanted to return to club rugby and due to the difficulties of working under COVID-19 restrictions, not because of a fall out with head coach Eddie Jones.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/john-mitchell-england-wasps-rugby-22404167

As for Ed - no idea.

Mitchell was lying. The truth would have hurt him, so one cannot blame him for doing so.

I'd go as far as suggesting that I was a skeptic in respect of the reasons given and that he'd suddenly come to such a decision just after signing a contract..... 

[westwaleswasp]

Certainly training with England can be beneficial...IF....the nature of the individual and the way England want to play suit that  t individual and the way their club have been focusing upon.

Jacob certainly seemed to benefit in the short term - though as for any player, I'd expect that a change of approach/removal of staleness can be a benefit. But players like Ollie Lawrence have been set back as he didn't fit with the "Jones way"  - and that's an opinion seemingly shared on their club forums. Ditto when Yarde went to a training camp a while back. And you'd probably be able to argue that Daly was hindered by playing for England - let alone training with them, let alone what happened to Devoto in a squad lacking 12's....

You are likely to pick up tips etc from the players you are with - but I'd need to be convinced that a club with the coaches that we have - including two of the recent England team - would not be able to set out what players need to do to improve.

This is basically a longer and much better explained version of what I was thinking. Selective picking of a youngster with no intention to play can in some situations be beneficial to them short term, and it gives a kick to established players to boot as they think their place might be more under threat. When it would  be troublesome would be if it becomes not done on an ad hoc basis, and becomes a blanket policy - 'every squad has X new youngsters in to have a look at'. That would be potentially counter productive for my money, and Mike has some v good examples of where it has not worked which illustrate the dangers nicely.

[welsh wasp]

I've never thought of Mitchell as diplomatic - but I suppose there's always a first time.

[Trevs Big Tackle]

Certainly training with England can be beneficial...IF....the nature of the individual and the way England want to play suit that  t individual and the way their club have been focusing upon.

Jacob certainly seemed to benefit in the short term - though as for any player, I'd expect that a change of approach/removal of staleness can be a benefit. But players like Ollie Lawrence have been set back as he didn't fit with the "Jones way"  - and that's an opinion seemingly shared on their club forums. Ditto when Yarde went to a training camp a while back. And you'd probably be able to argue that Daly was hindered by playing for England - let alone training with them, let alone what happened to Devoto in a squad lacking 12's....

You are likely to pick up tips etc from the players you are with - but I'd need to be convinced that a club with the coaches that we have - including two of the recent England team - would not be able to set out what players need to do to improve.

This is basically a longer and much better explained version of what I was thinking. Selective picking of a youngster with no intention to play can in some situations be beneficial to them short term, and it gives a kick to established players to boot as they think their place might be more under threat. When it would  be troublesome would be if it becomes not done on an ad hoc basis, and becomes a blanket policy - 'every squad has X new youngsters in to have a look at'. That would be potentially counter productive for my money, and Mike has some v good examples of where it has not worked which illustrate the dangers nicely.

Some young players are called up to "Extended training camps" or some such and are never in line to be picked. It's a great opportunity to gain experience of the coaching methods and atmosphere of the international camps without any selection pressure and also giving the coaches a great chance to see the players more closely.

However, some young and often very inexperienced players (with just a handful of first team appearances) are called up to the full proper test squad. These players then seem to spend a month or two effectively just holding tackle bags without even a sniff of getting on the bench for a chance at a cap.

The first scenario is great. The second scenario, much less so.

[westwaleswasp]

Absolutely, two very different scenarios there, and the latter is the type I am worried about too.

[mike909]

Agree with the above - my concerns do remain about players that England have apparently discarded or seemingly picked too soon and then have left them in limbo

The two I was thinking of were Nick Isiekwe and George Martin.

Nick was picked to tour SA when aged 20 after touring Argentina and playing 4 mins of test rugby and starting a warm up game (when 19) He was picked to start the first test, pulled after 35min, never to be seen again. And yet, since and especially in his loan season, has looked one of the outstanding players in the Prem, a leader on the pitch and yet not even invited to a meet up.

George Martin ended up getting a cap off the bench, last 6ns vs Ireland, having started 6 Tigers games (or there abouts) in a game where England were crap and got stuffed, playing 14 men......aged 19......

Seemed to be omitted from the squad for the easy summer games and not in the AI's either. what was a player with 6 Prem stats doing in a 6Ns game? And what's with him now - now that he seems to be in better form than when picked....

It's that sort of waste of talent that gets my goat.....and I'd guess will change post RWC...