Munster v Wasps: Post Match Thoughts.

[Wombles]

No intent no result.

Fitness more important

More Injury concerns.

Well done Munster. A good lesson on how to play rugby in the first 40. Fully deserved their win and their progress in the tournament.

For us....Well I am going to open this with what some may find a very controversial opinion. As someone who has played this game over 3 decades I recognise a training run when I see one, and that is what we saw today. It is not immediately obvious, and many people would think what they are witnessing is inaccuracy and lack of intensity, but the clues were there.

In rugby you need to keep a certain level of physicality as it is the very nature of the game, but you work at 95% rather than 100%. You do so in the hope that you get fitness in the legs, but at the same time working at a level where injuries do not occur (failed on that today). But look more closely. Look to Shields, a captain of experience. If we were going full bore to get through to the last 16 he would of been all over the ref with the tip tackle in the first half, constantly in his ear when Munster were slowing the game during their yellow card period trying to put into the refs head that they were time wasting? He would of been under the sticks passionately rallying the troops when a try is conceded. We saw nothing but a casual acceptance of what was happening. Beyond this, look to the team. When we were beating Tigers and taking it to Toulouse the team were talking, communicating, rallying and motivating. A turnover won, a penalty earnt would be celebrated like a winning try scored. We saw nothing like that at all. When we were 31-7 down there was no urgency, no desire to get back into the game. No subs bench screaming their team mates on. Why when Mills was pulled late on did Spink not start and Booj move in on the bench? Mills and Spink were starting ahead of him for a reason, you don't throw your 3rd choice into a starting birth when 2 others were considered ahead in the first place. Look at the coaches, a relaxation was visibly present that no coaching team would have if you are looking to qualify.

My thoughts are that with injuries, league position and what is ahead (Saracens and Exeter) we have bigger goals. There is no harm in having a go at the challenge cup, its been 14 years since we last lifted anything, and we stand more of a chance in the second tier competition than the first at the moment. Also we need to be pushing hard for a top 6 finish and Champions cup rugby next year, where hopefully we will be in a better position to push harder and compete. Injuries have dictated our season, and I think injuries decided how we approached today. And the reason I am so sanguine is that as much as i hate seeing us lose, I don't disagree with our goals if my thoughts were indeed the case.

As a finish lets hope YY is ok, that the injury is minor and the tests and treatment precautionary only!

Chris

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.

Rugby by birth. Wasps by the grace of God.

[Westy68]

When I saw the team sheet I was very disappointed and expected a difficult afternoon, comparing the team I was expecting at the beginning of the week.

The players did work hard but it was very disjointed and poorly managed. It goes to show the difference a top player gives you, that extra 2/3% is so important.

I am very disappointed as it’s just taking so long to get anywhere near our top side. Let’s hope some of the injuries aren’t too bad, unfortunately highly unlikely with Tom Young, wish him all the best

[Covkid40]

While I don’t disagree with a lot you’ve mentioned some things still worry me. Atkinsons kicking out of hand was very poor and we seemed to pick up a few injuries again today. Looking at the starting 15 i totally agree that the main focus is next week. Some bonuses out of today, Dobby looked lively and will benefit from the run out, I doubt he was ever going to play more than 60mins anyway, paulo got some game time, the props seem to be holding their own. I think we will see a significantly different team and performance next week

[westwaleswasp]

I will say this, challenge cup aside, *if*, and it is an if, we went into this resting players or playing at lower intensity as suggested above by Chris, in the name of bigger challenges ahead, then we need to look at ourselves.
If we were looking for top 4 in the prem, I would get it, the same way we weakened the team for Sarries hoping to pick up home points when down to bare bones.
 I think it is possible we could rise that far with a great run, sure, but it is a hard ask.

However, if the carrot is 'qualifying for top tier Euro rugby' and top 6, then someone needs to work out that this *is* that top tier rugby.  There is no point in trying to qualify for something if you then treat it as second best to the prem, like Sale used to.
We had a chance today, one point was all we needed, and to not get hammered. We should have focused on putting everything into that. I do hope that we did, and once more Munster have simply been lucky in facing us once again weakened. That I can  take. The thought of treating the top tier Euro competition as being of less importance than the prem when we are well adrift and not going to be relegated is not a pleasant one. I think we have just been unlucky with injuries again, but would be disappointed to discover we had prioritised elsewhere.

I did say challenge cup aside, and we may well be eyeing that, which I can see might be an attraction, but we will remember last week in years to come, whereas challenge cups rarely linger.

[Wombles]

WWW I agree with a lot of what you say. However I remember how winning the Parker Pen led to success in Europe on the biggest stage. Sometimes lifting a trophy like this is so valuable as it gives a tangible reward to the players, coaches, fans and club which moves us forward to higher heights.

I would love to see us pushing for the Champions cup knockouts, pushing for top 4 in the prem and looking for those titles but, frankly, we do not have a team and enough fit players to do that yet. I think we are building to that, but what odds would we all give to get into the top tier comp next year and see our lads lift the Challenge cup this? It can and does lead to bigger things, and also gives us something to celebrate that we have not been able to since Lol lifted the prem trophy at HQ in 2008.

[Westy68]

I will say this, challenge cup aside, *if*, and it is an if, we went into this resting players or playing at lower intensity as suggested above by Chris, in the name of bigger challenges ahead, then we need to look at ourselves.
If we were looking for top 4 in the prem, I would get it, the same way we weakened the team for Sarries hoping to pick up home points when down to bare bones.
 I think it is possible we could rise that far with a great run, sure, but it is a hard ask.

However, if the carrot is 'qualifying for top tier Euro rugby' and top 6, then someone needs to work out that this *is* that top tier rugby.  There is no point in trying to qualify for something if you then treat it as second best to the prem, like Sale used to.
We had a chance today, one point was all we needed, and to not get hammered. We should have focused on putting everything into that. I do hope that we did, and once more Munster have simply been lucky in facing us once again weakened. That I can  take. The thought of treating the top tier Euro competition as being of less importance than the prem when we are well adrift and not going to be relegated is not a pleasant one. I think we have just been unlucky with injuries again, but would be disappointed to discover we had prioritised elsewhere.

I did say challenge cup aside, and we may well be eyeing that, which I can see might be an attraction, but we will remember last week in years to come, whereas challenge cups rarely linger.

I think when we had to bring in players that really can’t compete at this level, then subconsciously I believe some players just drop that top % that take you to the next level. I don’t think Munster are that great and I was really confident we could beat them, when I saw that MLB and Marcus were brought into the team and we were missing 5 players that would’ve started, it was always going to be a massive ask and the players knew that

[Rossm]

A game too far. Without Tom Willis and Alfie we were always going to be outmuscled; no Biyi, no Jimmy Gopps, no Hougaard and no Frosty, too many to mention. Sure we were getting players back but we haven't been able to ease the long term returnees back into the game. I was surprised that Booj started. He wasn't even on the bench and was promoted over Spink. He was presumably a travelling reserve.

We lost a few more this afternoon - Thomas Young, Nemo (hamstring by the look of it), Tom West and Ben Morris HIAs. I didn't think Charlie looked 100%. I hope Dobby came through OK but I thought he looked a little rusty. Not surprising really. I hope both TW and Alfie are back for the next game. We are definitely lightweight without them.

[Neils]

Do we actually get Alfie back?

[Marlow Nick]

Do we actually get Alfie back?

That's up to Eddy. He can keep him or send him back (hopefully unbroken)

[Shugs]

If we did treat it as a training run that would be unforgivable. Stay in and we have a two leg last 16 game - who knows. I don’t think selection could have been much different though and to go and do something away at any of the Irish provinces you need to be full strength. We weren’t. For me the Challenge cup doesn’t matter - maybe a couple of decent matches to watch but it’s the competition for the also rans. Personally and think we gave it a full go today. But due to circumstances we were underpowered and a bit rusty.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I'd be gobsmacked if the boys didn't go out there to win. It's a preposterous idea that a professional team didn't try their hardest.

We failed, but trying to pretend that's OK because we weren't actually trying is the sort of excuse most people grow out of by the time they're 8.

[Wombles]

I'd be gobsmacked if the boys didn't go out there to win. It's a preposterous idea that a professional team didn't try their hardest.

We failed, but trying to pretend that's OK because we weren't actually trying is the sort of excuse most people grow out of by the time they're 8.

I did say my opinion would be controversial. I agree that they did not go out there to lose, I am certain they went out to give it a crack. What i do not think was present was a set up and approach that was a "give absolutely everything no-matter what" to win. Watch the game again, and look at the players, the coaches, the communication, the energy, the drive and compare and contrast with our games against Leicester and Toulouse, it really is chalk and cheese. It is not about growing out of things, but one thing about growing up is you learn when to pick your battles to win a war. 

[Westy68]

I don’t think it’s a case of let’s not bother but when we miss the quality players that we did and then bring in the players that we did. It’s to get that extra couple % of intensity that is needed because some players can’t get to that level. The sale game is also another classic example

[hopwood]

A game too far. Without Tom Willis and Alfie we were always going to be outmuscled; no Biyi, no Jimmy Gopps, no Hougaard and no Frosty, too many to mention. Sure we were getting players back but we haven't been able to ease the long term returnees back into the game. I was surprised that Booj started. He wasn't even on the bench and was promoted over Spink. He was presumably a travelling reserve.

We lost a few more this afternoon - Thomas Young, Nemo (hamstring by the look of it), Tom West and Ben Morris HIAs. I didn't think Charlie looked 100%. I hope Dobby came through OK but I thought he looked a little rusty. Not surprising really. I hope both TW and Alfie are back for the next game. We are definitely lightweight without them.

Yes.

[hopwood]

WWW I agree with a lot of what you say. However I remember how winning the Parker Pen led to success in Europe on the biggest stage. Sometimes lifting a trophy like this is so valuable as it gives a tangible reward to the players, coaches, fans and club which moves us forward to higher heights.

I would love to see us pushing for the Champions cup knockouts, pushing for top 4 in the prem and looking for those titles but, frankly, we do not have a team and enough fit players to do that yet. I think we are building to that, but what odds would we all give to get into the top tier comp next year and see our lads lift the Challenge cup this? It can and does lead to bigger things, and also gives us something to celebrate that we have not been able to since Lol lifted the prem trophy at HQ in 2008.

Yes.
Absolutely.
The Parker Pen set us up for the Heineken Cup European Championship win the following year.
Read Alex King’s account.
With all the players coming back and the harder ground, we really should win our first piece of silverware for many a year!
Let’s see this as a fantastic opportunity.