Wasps injury updates for Harlequins trip and England duo latest.

[Mellie]

Until EJ came along we hadn't reached a WC final since 2003.

Well England were in the 2007 World Cup Final. So you you are probably talking b**ll*cks.

Coaches will obviously have things they don't want to disclose before a tournament but they need to have some idea about how to play and what personnel are required. They will definitely be trying to create a winning team and learning from defeats.

Clive Woodward famously said "Judge me at the World Cup" before 1999, where England didn't fare too well. However, he created the basis of a team that stayed together long enough to win in 2003. By that time they were actually in decline, which is why they didn't kick on from then.

Brian Ashton used player lead initiatives after the 2007 group stage didn't go so well and was unlucky not to win it in the end.

Eddie may have done ok in 2019 but it's obvious he hasn't got a core side or coherent strategy that will last until 2023 unlike SCW. And he is obviously not advocating player power.

Maybe the SA turnaround for 2019 by appointing a new coach who put together a winning strategy based on players available to him is the best historical context to work out what's needed.

[califauna]

Until EJ came along we hadn't reached a WC final since 2003.

Well England were in the 2007 World Cup Final. So you you are probably talking b**ll*cks.

2003 is indeed a load of bollocks! Have corrected this.

So what's your view on the current strategy of selecting players out of position and focusing on versatility etc.? Are you saying that in your view he's not actually playing a long term game here and is simply picking to win recent 6N, but is just making awful selections, and the result is England doing badly? Or that his strategy is indeed probably the one I alluded to, but in your opinion that strategy is a bad one?

[Mellie]

Underdogs don't tend to win World Cups. When England won in 2003 they were #1 having had a long run of victories including Australia and NZ away.

It's about timing of when you reach peak performance. You don't want to peak too early as Ireland often do. However, you need to identify the players that are good enough and build a game plan around them with enough time to create a cohesive team. You will keep some moves back but not playing style even if you have multiple styles.

It's not clear to me that Jones knows the players or style yet. He makes wildcard picks of people with no experience who disappear without trace, picks people who have loads of experience but lack form, relies on key individuals who maybe don't fit how the team is evolving and plays players out of position which nullifies their best attributes.

I get that versatility is useful in a tournament squad but the players must have experience in the positions they play and be good enough. Daly at fullback was a glaringly obvious mistake that he persisted with. He was fine on the wing but a terrible 15.

I get the impression when Eddie thinks he's right facts don't matter. He's still got time to create a side to win in 2023 but unless he moves on from picking Youngs and identifies and plays a few scrum halves that work with Smith I doubt he will.

[InBetweenWasp]

Until EJ came along we hadn't reached a WC final since 2003.

Clive Woodward famously said "Judge me at the World Cup" before 1999, where England didn't fare too well.

Brian Ashton used player lead initiatives after the 2007 group stage didn't go so well and was unlucky not to win it in the end.

I'm not sure either of these examples are true?

The Woodward piece was misconstrued - He was asked whether thought Coaches were typically judged on the World Cup results to which he said yes, he thought they were.  The press turned that into 'Judge me on the World Cup' - It's not quite the same thing.

I'm not sure Ashton did anything different between the Group/Knock-Out stages in 2007 (Happy to be corrected if it's definitely wrong) but I thought the difference was the players, instigated by the Senior Members of the Squad, took charge of the game plans/tactics for the KOs - So was player forced, rather than Ashton deciding to use player-led initiatives.

That being said, he's fairly well-spoken about for being an open-minded coach who's ideas were more of a framework than a gameplan.

[wasps]

Until EJ came along we hadn't reached a WC final since 2003.

Clive Woodward famously said "Judge me at the World Cup" before 1999, where England didn't fare too well.

Brian Ashton used player lead initiatives after the 2007 group stage didn't go so well and was unlucky not to win it in the end.

I'm not sure either of these examples are true?

The Woodward piece was misconstrued - He was asked whether thought Coaches were typically judged on the World Cup results to which he said yes, he thought they were.  The press turned that into 'Judge me on the World Cup' - It's not quite the same thing.

I'm not sure Ashton did anything different between the Group/Knock-Out stages in 2007 (Happy to be corrected if it's definitely wrong) but I thought the difference was the players, instigated by the Senior Members of the Squad, took charge of the game plans/tactics for the KOs - So was player forced, rather than Ashton deciding to use player-led initiatives.

That being said, he's fairly well-spoken about for being an open-minded coach who's ideas were more of a framework than a gameplan.

Yeah, i remember 2007 as being a revolt against Ashton's leadership / style.

Some see that as a mega master plan from Brian Ashton to get the players to take responsibility, but I'm really not so sure that was the case

[califauna]

Eddie may have done ok in 2019 but it's obvious he hasn't got a core side or coherent strategy that will last until 2023 unlike SCW.

Assuming he stays on, what is your prediction on where England will finish in 2023 WC under Eddie Jones?

[Neils]

Eddie may have done ok in 2019 but it's obvious he hasn't got a core side or coherent strategy that will last until 2023 unlike SCW.

Assuming he stays on, what is your prediction on where England will finish in 2023 WC under Eddie Jones?

Depends on the draw but Semis at best.

[Mellie]

Until EJ came along we hadn't reached a WC final since 2003.

Clive Woodward famously said "Judge me at the World Cup" before 1999, where England didn't fare too well.

Brian Ashton used player lead initiatives after the 2007 group stage didn't go so well and was unlucky not to win it in the end.

I'm not sure either of these examples are true?

The Woodward quote was. Here's an article where he mentions it. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2001/sep/17/rugbyunion.comment

I do recall in 2007 the players were supposed to have disregarded the coaches and hatched a plan based on Wasps and Leicester attributes. However, Ashton was a big advocate of heads up rugby and empowering players to make decisions. Which is what they did. Not sure about the other coaches though.

[califauna]

Depends on the draw but Semis at best.

Looking at the draw, which is the most likely outcome for you - not making it out of the group stages, losing in the quarters, or losing in the semis?

[hookender]

Depends on the draw but Semis at best.

Looking at the draw, which is the most likely outcome for you - not making it out of the group stages, losing in the quarters, or losing in the semis?

Would expect to beat Wales or Australia in a quarter final , but lose to NZ or France in semis

 

[wasps]

Teams that win tournaments are teams that are usually good the majority of the time.

This idea of pretending to be rubbish so that you can launch a master plan at they big tournaments is like an old school Disney TV script.
I just don't believe that it happens in the real world at elite levels.

Not only that, but I'm not sure that Eddie has history of that approach either.
He shocked some teams when he was with Japan, but not because he'd lulled them into a false sense of security.



If you're a team capable of beating everyone, then do it.
Live off the confidence that it brings, see the confidence drain from your opponents when you beat them every time you play them......
And then, at the world cup, ride that wave to the trophy.


In reality, I believe Eddie wants a team where all the players are interchangeable. He's been trying to win a world cup that way for years, and he's still trying.

[mike909]

Teams that win tournaments are teams that are usually good the majority of the time.

This idea of pretending to be rubbish so that you can launch a master plan at they big tournaments is like an old school Disney TV script.
I just don't believe that it happens in the real world at elite levels.


In reality, I believe Eddie wants a team where all the players are interchangeable. He's been trying to win a world cup that way for years, and he's still trying.

Agree with that. The "hiding our best moves" strategy sounds a lot like a new excuse for playing badly/in a limited way/in a confused style.

It may well be that I am too inward looking - but players needs roles on the pitch and in the team. That usually coincides with their shirt number and their club position. There are areas where players interchange more often, but that's probably 10/12 and wing/FB in the backline and maybe 6 and SR in the pack. But to keep on trying to use 13's at 12 (I really feel for Lawrence) and Manu and Slade  are both mainly/always club 13's.

The place a player like Daly is most useful is on the bench, covering so many shirts......The fantasy hybrid team wasn't possible years ago with the Aussie team from 2003, and really isn't now. We see a bit more flex at club level, but it's not common.

[hopwood]

The problem with Eddie is that he’s an obsessive style of person.
Truly obsessive.
He’s in his head all day, all night…and I don’t think he sleeps that long either.

I’m sure he’s got great intentions.
The problem is…he’s literally got a hundred-thousand ideas flying around his head.
He’s obsessively scoured all sports for answers and insights.
Yet, at the end of it all, he can’t decide on one particular style of play.
He’s got too much going on up top (which is very common for an obsessive/highly controlling personality).
It also means he doesn’t delegate very well, as he doesn’t trust anyone else to do as good as a job as himself.

He’s so consumed by his own pride/ego/narrative that failure is way too much of a big deal for him.
So much so, that he wants to control every aspect of every play.

You’ll get another England head coach come in next…and hopefully they’ll simply have 20 ideas that they’ll try to put into place.
They may not be quite so obsessed about losing a game in the same way Eddie is, which will allow them empower the players more to make their own decisions and lead on the field.
Forget fear of failure, but play to excite, excel and win.
From there you can build a system, an identity, a way of playing and stick to it.

Eddie’s not a bad guy. He’s just the wrong person to be coaching England right now.
His obsessive approach can work for a year or two.
But then everyone gets exhausted by it…and there’s little fun or enjoyment in the process.

[califauna]

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

Formula 1 is where it gets talked about most, but sandbagging is a part of all elite level sports. Perhaps some to a greater degree than others. Art of war!

It's not necessary to pretend to be rubbish if you adopt the right strategy. Focusing on versatility and selecting on that basis will naturally negatively affect performance levels in the short-term, but have a number of advantages in the long term.  So will picking on a basis of depth development.

I agree that he's trying to get an edge through versatility.

[califauna]

Eddie’s not a bad guy. He’s just the wrong person to be coaching England right now.

How far do you think England will get in WC 2023?