Wasps injury updates for Harlequins trip and England duo latest.

[Neils]

Eddie’s not a bad guy. He’s just the wrong person to be coaching England right now.

How far do you think England will get in WC 2023?

Why keep asking the same question?

[hopwood]

Eddie’s not a bad guy. He’s just the wrong person to be coaching England right now.

How far do you think England will get in WC 2023?

I have no idea, but then again I’m not one of these people solely focused on the World Cup. The whole tournament has 2-3 games of real significance. It happens every four years.
I’d much prefer to have a consistent philosophy by a far more composed and cohesive head coach, with a better culture and environment for the players.
I’d like us to being playing inspiring rugby at every possible opportunity, not once every 4 years.

[westwaleswasp]

Talking about 2023 is bull.
I am sorry, knock out rugby is knock out rugby.
New Zealand won in 87, then next won in 2011, despite being top of the rankings for much of the intervening time, and that was by a point with a truely terrible and one sided reffing  performance by Joubert. Were NZ better than Australia in 2003? Yes. Were they better than France in 99? Yes. Did they lose to both? Yes. Were England better than Australia and France in 2007? No. Did they beat both? Yes. We could be here all day. There are bucketsful of examples.
Planning to win WC is like planning to win penalty shootouts. You don't screw around for two years for a tournament that can be ruined by a red in the first five minutes of the quarters. You win the events you are in,experiment in the easier matches, and build momentum.
No team that wins WC indulges in this masterplan stuff.

[califauna]

I sometimes ask people what their predictions are as it perfectly distills their idea of how good the coach and squad are and will be.

Curiously I often find that people who slam EJ end up giving me a prediction that England will reach the semis or final, whilst simultaneously claiming that England's raw material in terms of players/talent/depth isn't all that great. Seems like a bit of a contradiction.

[califauna]

I’d like us to being playing inspiring rugby at every possible opportunity, not once every 4 years.

Fair enough. RFU and EJ clearly have different priorities though. 2023 and 2027.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Talking about 2023 is bull.
I am sorry, knock out rugby is knock out rugby.
New Zealand won in 87, then next won in 2011, despite being top of the rankings for much of the intervening time, and that was by a point with a truely terrible and one sided reffing  performance by Joubert. Were NZ better than Australia in 2003? Yes. Were they better than France in 99? Yes. Did they lose to both? Yes. Were England better than Australia and France in 2007? No. Did they beat both? Yes. We could be here all day. There are bucketsful of examples.
Planning to win WC is like planning to win penalty shootouts. You don't screw around for two years for a tournament that can be ruined by a red in the first five minutes of the quarters. You win the events you are in,experiment in the easier matches, and build momentum.
No team that wins WC indulges in this masterplan stuff.

Good points, very well made.

[califauna]

Talking about 2023 is bull.
...
You win the events you are in,experiment in the easier matches, and build momentum.

Why only experiment in 'easy' matches?

Why are we assuming that there is no plan to build momentum in 2023?  Seems like enough time to me personally. Is it really necessary to win all that much 18 months out? SA weren't. England could win or challenge for 6N 2023, win the WC warm ups. That up to 8/9 matches on the bounce.

[wasps]

I understand and appreciate the idea of hiding your secret weapons.
But you're not meant to lose games in the meantime.
You're meant to scrape through, not playing your best and not showing your hand, but still win.



As for where I think we'll get to in a world cup, we're currently 3rd in the rankings (I believe)
Therefore, if the cup was tomorrow, anything short of a semi final would be a failure, and a final would be a success

[califauna]

As for where I think we'll get to in a world cup, we're currently 3rd in the rankings (I believe)
Therefore, if the cup was tomorrow, anything short of a semi final would be a failure, and a final would be a success

Again, sounds like an endorsement to me.  It's in no small part due to EJ that England are 3rd best team in the world isn't it?

What's your prediction for 2023?

You're meant to scrape through, not playing your best and not showing your hand, but still win.

Why? And why will it always even be possible to win every match WITHOUT showing your hand?  Beating Ireland and France surely requires precisely this - bringing your A-game?

[Horusthewasp]

Now confirmed that Joe and Alfie away with Eddie this weekend, also Alex Dombrandt, Marcus Smith & Joe Marchant.

Probably the biggest news from this is Quins getting Marler back given their scrum last week.

Reported that Marler requested to be released to play against Wasps …

https://www.ruck.co.uk/requested-release-joe-marler-asks-out-from-latest-england-squad/

[WonkyWasp]

    

[hookender]

As for where I think we'll get to in a world cup, we're currently 3rd in the rankings (I believe)
Therefore, if the cup was tomorrow, anything short of a semi final would be a failure, and a final would be a success

Again, sounds like an endorsement to me.  It's in no small part due to EJ that England are 3rd best team in the world isn't it?

What's your prediction for 2023?

You're meant to scrape through, not playing your best and not showing your hand, but still win.

Why? And why will it always even be possible to win every match WITHOUT showing your hand?  Beating Ireland and France surely requires precisely this - bringing your A-game?

 I too think England will reach the semifinals in 2023 , purely because of the draw.

 However For me the 6n is a much better measure of performance  as it comes round once a year and has , normally, the same amount of meaningful matches to be champions. It should have the same focus to win .

[westwaleswasp]

Worth noting that England made the quarters in 87, final in 91, quarters 95, 99, won it 03, final 07, quarters 11, group 15, final 19.
So in 30 years 91 -19, 1 win, 3 runners up, 3 quarters, 1 blank.
So predicting a semi is entirely in keeping with England's mean average over 30 years, literally just business as usual, and not a contradiction for those with a low opinion of Eddie.

You have to remember all this talk of England having a large pool of poor players is, just that, talk. It simply is not true. It is fair to say we are not taking from the top of the athlete pool unlike NZ, but the game has plenty of cash and a rich audience to fund the game. France and Australia also have other competing sports that dwarf rugby union, and have made 3 and 4 finals each.

England's win pc vs NZ is historically poor, about 20%, but they are 50 pc vs Australia and high thirties vs the springboks. And before anyone says 'Eddie has contributed to that vs Australia' he has indeed, and if you stop the SA clock with Andy Robinson we had a 50 win ratio vs the SA, it does happen as things are cyclical to an extent. Eddie gets full credit for beating Australia, even if everyone else is.

We are historically up vs the NH teams, albeit not by much vs Wales, who have a dismal record vs all three SH teams compared to us. Constantly making a semi in soccer is an unreasonable expectation for England's fans and press. Making one in rugby is a fair expectation given our historical record. England have spent most of 90s and first half of the 00s being top table in world rugby terms, and the rest of the time close to it, even if we had some rough periods, the overall performance is if a top 4 team. So Eddie's England ranking in the top 4 is about par for the historical course over 30 years. Not something to criticise about, nor to praise. Where the criticism comes is the 6n  2018 till now.

 I don't want to waste years worrying about if we fail, which could could simply be losing a tight one in the quarters against a good team from a pool of death or hitting a better team having been in a pool of death ourselves) or succeed (beat an OK to dangerous team  and a good team) to make the final, or maybe two good teams.

[westwaleswasp]

Talking about 2023 is bull.
I am sorry, knock out rugby is knock out rugby.
New Zealand won in 87, then next won in 2011, despite being top of the rankings for much of the intervening time, and that was by a point with a truely terrible and one sided reffing  performance by Joubert. Were NZ better than Australia in 2003? Yes. Were they better than France in 99? Yes. Did they lose to both? Yes. Were England better than Australia and France in 2007? No. Did they beat both? Yes. We could be here all day. There are bucketsful of examples.
Planning to win WC is like planning to win penalty shootouts. You don't screw around for two years for a tournament that can be ruined by a red in the first five minutes of the quarters. You win the events you are in,experiment in the easier matches, and build momentum.
No team that wins WC indulges in this masterplan stuff.

Good points, very well made.

Thank  you. I think most people feel that way.

[WonkyWasp]

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