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Author Topic: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.  (Read 1629 times)

Rossm

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Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« on: February 28, 2022, 09:12:49 AM »
From this morning's Daily Telegraph.

Turgid rugby is turning fans off - referees have to realise they are part of the problem

Officials need to crack down on the scrummage as they do at the breakdown to avoid bores like the first half of England v Wales

In the end, the Twickenham crowd were given a tense end to a game that was won by England but which, for lengthy periods, was frustratingly disjointed. The responsibility for this unevenness lay with both teams, who made too many unforced errors, and the officials.

From an England perspective, they are still in with a chance, however remote, of contesting the Six Nations title and bar a disastrous final 10 minutes at Murrayfield would have been unbeaten going into the fourth round of the tournament. On the other hand, this win could, and probably should, have been settled much earlier, when they took a 17-0 lead in the second half and there is still a lot of improvement needed to reach the performance levels of France.

From a Welsh perspective, it was an admirable riposte, but disappointing that it took so long to find their attacking fluency. In the end, they ran out of time to overtake their opponents and the fact that they outscored England by three tries to one will be of little comfort. The loss leaves them battling to avoid finishing in fifth place, having won the title last year.

For balance it is right to record that there were several good performances from England players. Alex Dombrandt would have been my man of the match and he did far more of note than just scoring England’s only try. Maro Itoje was his usual industrious self and half-backs Harry Randall and Marcus Smith, took a step forward as a Test pairing, managing to input more pace into England’s game when they were given decent possession.

For Wales, Alex Cuthbert stood out and looked the most potent attacker on the pitch. Dan Biggar sustained his side's defiance in the first half and sparked their comeback in the second. Taine Basham produced another consistently competitive game and Taulupe Faletau was remarkable, given he had just returned from injury.

The second half was, in the main, a very decent spectacle, during which four tries were recorded. On the other hand, an 80-minute game actually took 101 minutes to play. Even accounting for the fact that there were two longish breaks for injury, there were other long bouts of inactivity which marred the spectacle, including a turgid first half which did nothing to promote rugby to any but its most avid supporters.

You can, if you like, dismiss the following as an isolated example or, if you are honest, you can admit that what I describe happens too often and turns off potential rugby converts.

Two sets of scrums took six minutes to complete, including one which ran down nearly three minutes off the Liam William’s sin-bin clock. What made this even more frustrating was that in some areas the referee, Mike Adamson, was admirably sharp in enforcing the law. If he had refereed the scrums in the same way he did the breakdown, we would have been spared the interminable delays and repeat offenders would have been yellow carded.

It is not a referee’s job to advise players how to scrummage. Not only are they not qualified to do so, but instructions like ‘I want balance’ ‘stay down’ and ‘hold your weight back’ have no agreed definition and could mean something different to every player in both front rows.

In no other aspect of play do referees feel it right to coach and players know what they should do without being told. A referee’s job is to enforce the law and the game would be better off if they did this in the scrum.
The trite, and disingenuous, response from referees is ‘no referee ever collapses a scrum.’ No, but no player has a whistle and is on the field to enforce the law. Some referees claim that if they took a stricter approach, scrums would never be completed.

Well, in this game, with the softly, softly approach, there were eight scrums in the game and only three of them were successful. Nearly 65 per cent of scrums didn’t complete, so how much worse could it be? Eventually, and probably far quicker than you think, players would get the message and you would, miraculously, see that they could comply with the laws all along.

When you have new laws, like the 50:22 experiment, it makes a mockery of its positivity if you then allow an unnecessary and inexplicable break in play. The whole Welsh lineout, and England hooker, Jamie George, were ready for the throw, only for Adamson to allow the home forwards to have a two-minute conference and a water break.

The latter must become properly regulated. In football drinks breaks were sanctioned for one minute in each half and cricket allows one every hour. Rugby should do similar because the haphazard way in which they seem to occur is becoming daft.


I particularly agree with his points on the amount of time that lineouts now take. And as for the f*cking water boys, they seem to have bred like rabbits this season🙄

SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

hookender

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2022, 11:21:53 AM »
Must agree about length of time takes set pieces to be completed, or in case of scrums, not ,with all the resets that can occur and still ends up a penalty.
 
 Which then leads to one of my biggest bug bears , the line out decision from a penalty. They all gather round to discuss whether to go for posts or line ,kick for line …and then all gather round again to decide on which play to go for.

 I know possibly kick might not end up where they hoped , but for hooker to run across, get the ball, wipe it down, stand there , whilst others  saunter  across ,and then someone trots up to hooker to then tell him where to throw it, with probably water coming on pitch as well…
 





Rossm

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2022, 11:40:47 AM »
Must agree about length of time takes set pieces to be completed, or in case of scrums, not ,with all the resets that can occur and still ends up a penalty.
 
 Which then leads to one of my biggest bug bears , the line out decision from a penalty. They all gather round to discuss whether to go for posts or line ,kick for line …and then all gather round again to decide on which play to go for.

 I know possibly kick might not end up where they hoped , but for hooker to run across, get the ball, wipe it down, stand there , whilst others  saunter  across ,and then someone trots up to hooker to then tell him where to throw it, with probably water coming on pitch as well…
 

I thought someone called the lineout - not whispered it to a prop who trundles over to the hooker and then whispers in his ear. Room for error? I remember a story from the war in the Falklands/Malvinas (respect to Rodrigo). Alarm at the front of the marching column with 'air raid red, pass it on'. When it got to the end of the column there was massive whooping and hollering. It had arrived as 'Galtieri's dead'🤣
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

mike909

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2022, 12:39:37 PM »
Yep - as an old prop - I'd have never listened to the ref....my role was to negate the opposition prop and...play off the ref. It might need players to come together on this as in many ways they are the experts - and a decisive agreement on how the officials can facilitate scrum time.

But the bigger piss about on Saturday was the example given by Brian. That Lineout delay was taking the proverbial - if I'd had the power I'd have had the officials award Wales a freekick/penalty

I was timing the first half and it seemed it took around 53 mins......it was very dull indeed

Heathen

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2022, 02:16:08 PM »
Yep - as an old prop - I'd have never listened to the ref....my role was to negate the opposition prop and...play off the ref.

Ditto! Get the oppo LH eating grass!!!!!!!

Marlow Nick

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2022, 03:00:51 PM »
Fatigue is an important part of the game and referees need to ensure teams don't take breaks.

Personally I'd like to see

- all kicks for the posts yo be drop kicks taken within 30 seconds. It works for 7s so why not 15s? This gas the added benefit of giving a higher value on tries and penalties under the posts vs tries in the corner and penalties 50m out

- all line outs taken within 5s of the ref being ready. If you're not ready hand the ball over to the other team for a free kicks tap and go. Players should not keep the ref waiting. If you're injured or need shie laces tying tough luck. Only stop play for serious injuries everyone else get on with it.

- all scrums to crouch with 5 seconds of the ref being ready. No need for a conference. No need for 60 seconds of back slapping. Get in position now. Fail to be ready and you can gand the ball yo the opposition.

I suspect this will not only speed up the game and create gaps to exploit as players tire but also challenge the players to reduce their weight so they have stamina to keep up with play.




hookender

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2022, 04:03:47 PM »
Fatigue is an important part of the game and referees need to ensure teams don't take breaks.

Personally I'd like to see

- all kicks for the posts yo be drop kicks taken within 30 seconds. It works for 7s so why not 15s? This gas the added benefit of giving a higher value on tries and penalties under the posts vs tries in the corner and penalties 50m out

- all line outs taken within 5s of the ref being ready. If you're not ready hand the ball over to the other team for a free kicks tap and go. Players should not keep the ref waiting. If you're injured or need shie laces tying tough luck. Only stop play for serious injuries everyone else get on with it.

- all scrums to crouch with 5 seconds of the ref being ready. No need for a conference. No need for 60 seconds of back slapping. Get in position now. Fail to be ready and you can gand the ball yo the opposition.

I suspect this will not only speed up the game and create gaps to exploit as players tire but also challenge the players to reduce their weight so they have stamina to keep up with play.

 Was going to mention about players dropping to knee at send of a set of play. Only problem with continuing to play is would a ref want to take responsibility of saying how serious an injury is? Asking a player to leave pitch to be attended ( or to put in contact lens would take just as long)

 Like the idea of cutting time on ‘celebration’ of winning a scrum, maul ,turnover, but normally this allows penalised side time to get in position anyway.

Shugs

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2022, 05:39:06 PM »
Agree, the re-setting of scrums is painful and must be speeded up. One thing that constantly baffles me is the normal penalty that is given if you’re scrum goes backwards. As far as I am aware there is no law against merely losing the scrum? If an offence is committed, fair enough, but just being pushed backwards is not an offence and it’s up to the attacking team to make the most of it. It’s possible if this was enforced there may be less re-sets.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2022, 05:42:33 PM »
 I have a problem with Brian's logic. Scotland France was bloody wonderful. France Ireland was fine entertainment. There were no magic new refs for those games.
Going back to the autumn, France NZ and Ire NZ were fine matches. All the Australian games were super, although that was partly because Australia kept losing and moaning about it. Australia France last summer was as compelling a series as you would hope to see, ever.

The dire bore fests are all involving England, South  Africa, The Lions and to a lesser extent Wales. Refs might be an issue, but they cannot be the sole issue when teams play like France dis this week.

Skippy

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2022, 11:14:55 PM »
If both teams had a fair crack at winning the scrum legally, we might see less messing about. That would require a straight put in rather than feeding the ball into the second row. Props then have something other to worry about rather than trying to win stylistic points with the ref. They’d have to crack on with propping the hooker, so he can have a crack at hooking the ball — assuming there are any hookers who actually know how to do this.

Teams might also want to think about the benefits of getting fast ball out of the scrums. Japan showed this with devastating effect in 2015. If the ball is fast enough, the oppositions scrum half doesn’t have time to track round. The attacking 9 then becomes a defensive problem for the oppo 10, which starts to open up space and opportunities to exploit overlaps and switch moves.

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2022, 09:08:13 AM »
If both teams had a fair crack at winning the scrum legally, we might see less messing about. That would require a straight put in rather than feeding the ball into the second row. Props then have something other to worry about rather than trying to win stylistic points with the ref. They’d have to crack on with propping the hooker, so he can have a crack at hooking the ball — assuming there are any hookers who actually know how to do this.

Teams might also want to think about the benefits of getting fast ball out of the scrums. Japan showed this with devastating effect in 2015. If the ball is fast enough, the oppositions scrum half doesn’t have time to track round. The attacking 9 then becomes a defensive problem for the oppo 10, which starts to open up space and opportunities to exploit overlaps and switch moves.

Agree with the points but the straight feed was enforced a few years ago but refs gradually stopped enforcing it for reasons that I can't fathom.

Anyway, lets get to the route of the problem and use economics 101: Incentives matter.

As the laws stand if a team is awarded a penalty at the scrum they get 2 bites of the cherry if they can get the ball out: A long advantage play and if nothing comes of that they go back for the penalty and kick to touch. If they are lucky the offending side will eventually have a man yellow carded. (Maybe one of the stats gurus can tell us what percentage of yellow cards are props? My guess is its quite high.)

This incentivises teams to have a dominant scrum and one of the reasons tight head props are the highest paid players. So now we have an arms race as every team need to have a dominant scrum, or at the minimum one that isn't continually giving away penalties.

So what could be done, other than trying to enforce a straight feed, obviously the preferred solution? A couple of thoughts:

Once a penalty has been awarded play stops. No advantage and then coming back for the kick. Alternatively, if the team chooses to play on then the penalty is over and they don't come back.

No reset scrums after a penalty has been awarded. The choices are the usual kick for goal, touch or tap and go.

I did think about not allowing quick taps, but that's taking away an essential element of the game and allows defending sides to switch off.

This should also reduce the need for so many yellow cards as we won't get repetitive scrum penalties that force the refs hand.

The scrum is an integral part of the game as a a way to restart the game but the way things are an innocuous knock-on can lead to the offending side giving away a series of penalties and losing a player, that seems disproportionate when all we want to do is get the game going again.

I appreciate that there's no right answers only trade-offs in this situation and I may have missed something, but if the PTB don't get a grip they'll start losing audiences and there's an opportunity cost. Internationals are the shop windows that attract the mildly curious to the game and if the first 40 minutes they watch are a bore fest like we saw on Saturday they won't be coming back.


Mellie

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2022, 10:22:37 AM »
The scrum is a way to restart the game with contested possession with the non offending team given the advantage of put in and head.

To avoid teams milking penalties the answer is very simple. Instead of giving a massive advantage penalty from a scrum, just give possession to the team who would have got a penalty by means of a free kick with no option of another scrum.  That way, a dominant scrum could either win clean possession from the scrum or the free kick. Same result. If that were the case I bet scrums would be mostly completed first time.

Should a team constantly give away free kicks because their scrum can't compete legally the yellow card option still exists. It's the scrum penalty that's the problem.

Nigel Med

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2022, 12:57:31 PM »
The scrum is a way to restart the game with contested possession with the non offending team given the advantage of put in and head.

To avoid teams milking penalties the answer is very simple. Instead of giving a massive advantage penalty from a scrum, just give possession to the team who would have got a penalty by means of a free kick with no option of another scrum.  That way, a dominant scrum could either win clean possession from the scrum or the free kick. Same result. If that were the case I bet scrums would be mostly completed first time.

Should a team constantly give away free kicks because their scrum can't compete legally the yellow card option still exists. It's the scrum penalty that's the problem.
Could not agree more. It's a simple case of looking at the principals of the game. If you have a dominant scrum, you win possession, NOT the chance to kick 3 points or go to the corner potentially to gain 7. A Free Kick awarded would solve a multitude of problems and I definitely agree that the vast majority of scrums would be completed.

Buttoi

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Re: Brian Moore Talking Sense - Again.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2022, 01:23:12 PM »
The scrum is a way to restart the game with contested possession with the non offending team given the advantage of put in and head.

To avoid teams milking penalties the answer is very simple. Instead of giving a massive advantage penalty from a scrum, just give possession to the team who would have got a penalty by means of a free kick with no option of another scrum.  That way, a dominant scrum could either win clean possession from the scrum or the free kick. Same result. If that were the case I bet scrums would be mostly completed first time.

Should a team constantly give away free kicks because their scrum can't compete legally the yellow card option still exists. It's the scrum penalty that's the problem.

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