Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.  (Read 4764 times)

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2022, 09:57:43 PM »
I do think it’s more to do with the players. There is nothing coaches can do about handling errors, kicks out on the full, simple drops, ridiculous penalties and sky high passes. But let’s say you’re right - who are you getting rid of and who comes in?

I realise this is a bit of a chicken and egg argument.  But I do genuinely think we can lay the players' inability to perform at a decent level at the hands of the coaching team. Any individual forward pass can be written off as a player error.  Any miss kick, any dropping the ball instead of placing it carefully down, any unwarranted hospital pass, any failed catch etc etc.

But the question we have to ask is why are a group of players with such potential, who were one miss-throw away from winning the title two seasons ago, who are studded with internationals constantly failing at the basics?

For me it is down to one of two things.

Either the way they are being coached to play does not fit how they feel they should be playing, and so they are constantly second guessing every action, stopping them from the instinctive style we had when Lee first took over and told them simply to play their own game and see what happened.

Or there is something going on in the club that is stopping them from trusting each other to do what needs to be done.  When the players simply concentrate on doing what they do best knowing full well that everyone else is doing the same, that the support runner will be there, that the kick will be chased, that the defensive line is solid and the tackler is in place they all play so much better. They play as a team. They pull off moves that have no right to work, they generate moments of magic that no other team has managed to emulate for years.

Maybe there's another option I'm not seeing.  But both of these are down to the coaching team, and either one would explain why we are constantly fighting against an inability to do the simple things well enough.

As to who should go and who should replace them I'd be looking for a DOR with experience and proven ability.  I don't know who is available right now, but I know in the past we've spoken to a lot of people from Wurzel to Jake White, from Shaun who agreed to come and then backed out, to Borthwick.

There are plenty of people out there who could step into that role.  And when they were in I'd give them the freedom to pick their own coaching team.  Keep on the people we have if needs be, let them go if they don't fit.

The fact is rugby is a business, and as it stands Wasps is not viable on the pitch. Something needs to change.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 10:55:36 PM by Vespula Vulgaris »
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Jac A

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2022, 10:28:33 PM »
I try not to be negative but that was such a frustrating performance.

I know that I will be in a minority here but I am not yet convinced that lack of a top quality 10 is our main issue. I am not going to try and argue that Jacob or Charlie are top class fly-halves, they aren't - they aren't tier 1 international standard, but I don't think that there are many 10s around that would improve our play all that much. We have shocking ball retention. We lose that ball in contact so much that it makes playing the way we seem to want to - at a quick tempo - breakdown so often. This isn't the 10s fault, this is basics.

We were better at the breakdown today but still not good enough and our presentation skills are also not good enough - perhaps that is because support players are not there quick enough and so a long-arm present risks exposing the ball too early but it does mean that it slows down our breakdown speed. In the first 5 mins or so we were getting the ball away fast and Saints really struggled to get any control but they soon recovered and were able to prevent us getting clean ball. It is very hard for any 10 to look good when they have a full and set defensive line ahead of them.

I do agree that Jacob looks far too nonchalant at times (even forgetting that awful non-grounding). I also don't understanding our kicking game at all. I will put this one on Jacob (but in fairness he has bee good here before but just not today) - the restarts Jacob took today were awful, they were about 10 metres too far inside. We have almost always used Josh to try and tap back but he didn't have a chance of getting near them and that gave Saints easy exits. Also - if we haven't worked out that we are rubbish at chasing kicks yet. there's a problems with the Monday morning reviews - kick the ball out and dead please!

Robson has been poor - everyone seems to agree. My theory is that he has realised that his international career (for what it was) is over - Randall, Quirk and Mitchell (and probably JvP) are all ahead of him and he will now almost certainly never start a test match or play at a World Cup. For someone with his talent that is a huge shame and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is effecting his game. I'm sure people will think that he is a professional and should just get on with it but I'm sure those who have faced major realisations in their career will know it can affect your performance - I have no way of knowing this of course but wouldn't be surprised. For me - start Porter, he deserves it.

Lots of other players were poor in my opinion too, exceptions pretty much those mentioned by others. Tom Willis has been immense - another 7 defenders beaten and 16 tackles, Odogwu our only dangerous outside back, Carr good when he came on, Cardall was strong and shouldn't have gone off. Haven't seen anything from Fifita since his departure was announced and don't really see any reason to see anymore, Hislop isn't really able to scrummage at this level to any great effect, Watson a bit meh.

It looks like 9th place and no European Champions Cup for us and I am increasing coming round to VV's view that the coaching team have to take responsibility for our failings and lack of action on fixing basic issues.

I think this is the most negative I've been on here and I am sorry for it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 12:03:01 AM by Jac A »

Heathen

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2022, 10:43:31 PM »
There is a common theme running through our last three games. Inability to do the simple things well. We are struggling with the elementary basics. Lineout was good. We lacked agression and needed the defence to be better structured. Building attacks with patience is lacking. Scrum was sound until the replacement props appeared.

As VV says - is it coaching? Something going on in the background that is inhibiting palyers?

Today, Dobby was poor. Slow and ponderous. His box kicking was terrible. Contrast that with Will Porter, who really added some zip. He should start the next GP match IMHO. Ditto Nemo - someone who actually has a rugby brain. Stooke was his usual Mr.100%. Gaby performed well. Watson did not impress. Jimmy had an off day. As someone else has said, maybe it is time to let him go.

Play the Academy next week and hopefully by the time Falcons pitch up on the 26th, our fortunes might change.

Lee post match :

"Reflecting on the defeat, Blackett added: "A couple of errors knocked the stuffing out of us. I just asked them if it's cohesion or confidence. I don't think we're lacking confidence, we got on a good run now we're going on the flip side and a few defeats. I think more cohesion, there's still boys trying to gel and get in there. There's some guys who looked like they lacked a bit of game time as well."

Mellie

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2022, 11:58:49 PM »
I know that I will be in a minority here but I am not yet convinced that lack of a top quality 10 is our main issue. I am not going to try and argue that Jacob or Charlie are top class fly-halves, they aren't - they aren't tier 1 international standard, but I don't think that there are many 10s around that would improve our play all that much. We have shocking ball retention. We lose that ball in contact so much that it makes playing the way we seem to want to - at a quick tempo - breakdown so often. This isn't the 10s fault, this is basics.

We were better at the breakdown today but still not good enough and our presentation skills are also not good enough - perhaps that is because support players are not there quick enough and so a long-arm present risk exposing the ball too early but it does mean that it slows down our breakdown speed. In the first 5 mins or so we were getting the ball away fast and Saints really struggled to get any control but they soon recovered and were able to prevent us getting clean ball. It is very hard for any 10 to look good when they have a full and set defensive line ahead of them.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. We are trying to play a quick tempo game, which worked well at the start against Saints, but our execution of that over 80 minutes has been abysmal. That's why performances have been up and down all the time.

We don't do the basics well enough to play this way at the moment and lack composure, leading to panic, when things don't work properly. Chopping and changing players all season out of necessity hasn't helped continuity or cohesion either.

My conclusion is that the coaches know what they want but the players cannot deliver it currently. There is no quick fix but hopefully we can find one by next season when we can have more consistent selections.

Longer term we either need players who can deliver what the coaches are asking for or coaches whose game plans account for the abilities of the players available.

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2022, 06:13:52 AM »
Quote
I think you've hit the nail on the head. We are trying to play a quick tempo game, which worked well at the start against Saints, but our execution of that over 80 minutes has been abysmal. That's why performances have been up and down all the time.
I commented after the first try that they looked good and were playing with a lot of zip. By that I meant that that they were moving the ball around well, Dan was getting to the breakdown quickly and releasing the ball immediately and looked confident. Almost back to his best. The speed of ball through the air on passes was impressive.

IIRC the first try was after about 18 phases. It wasn't turgid take the ball in to contact, they pulled the Saints defence all over the place and got from wing to wing.

And then it went down hill. Its hard to point to where it started going wrong, perhaps we should give credit to Saints for shutting down us down. But passes got a bit slower, Dan didn't seen as decisive and passes started going a bit behind receivers. My thought was that like a golfer trying to hit the ball harder they were "pulling" the pass.

Covkid40

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2022, 07:35:31 AM »
I’ve long voiced my opinion that Jacob isn’t good enough to be a starting 10 and while In general I thought he was poor again today with the odd sprinkling of gold dust he was far from the worst player on the pitch. I really don’t see how Watson gets a starting berth, JTA is a liability at scrum time, Hislop only fractionally better. Fifita is another one that has dropped right off since news of his departure and is looking increasingly fragile and that’s a major problem for a forward. Not sure how much Jimmy has left in the tank so probably time to start looking to players that will be here next season. Despite todays performance I think there were some positives, with the additions for next season I think our pack will be a match for almost anyone including replacements. For me Spink is starting to grow into the player we hoped for, far from the finished article but heading in the right direction. Paulo will give anyone problems if we give him the opportunity

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2022, 08:13:38 AM »
I’ve long voiced my opinion that Jacob isn’t good enough to be a starting 10 and while In general I thought he was poor again today with the odd sprinkling of gold dust he was far from the worst player on the pitch. I really don’t see how Watson gets a starting berth, JTA is a liability at scrum time, Hislop only fractionally better. Fifita is another one that has dropped right off since news of his departure and is looking increasingly fragile and that’s a major problem for a forward. Not sure how much Jimmy has left in the tank so probably time to start looking to players that will be here next season. Despite todays performance I think there were some positives, with the additions for next season I think our pack will be a match for almost anyone including replacements. For me Spink is starting to grow into the player we hoped for, far from the finished article but heading in the right direction. Paulo will give anyone problems if we give him the opportunity

Umaga's issue yesterday is that often he received the ball with a Saints player right on him, with nowhere to go. They choked our first phase ball every time. On kick chase they were usually ready to slam the receiver as soon as they touched the ball with their feet on the ground. The Saints game plan was simple, push us hard in to making mistakes, and we did by the bucket load.

But, the problems ran much deeper that that. Our set scrum was pushed and bossed around, meaning if we did get ball it was with us on the back foot. We gave so much territory away from the set scrum. JTA is clearly not fit for purpose, and Bomber was also clearly not fit/ready for return.

Our lineout was OK, but failed to form into a decent maul, disrupted again by Saints.

Watson is not a full back. I struggle to understand why he gets picked. His idea of attack is to run fast into the nearest defender and fall over and lose the ball, or to throw the ball away and let someone else deal with it.

We need a 12. Jimmy is past it and Mills is made of glass. Actually, we need two 12s.

Porter was the light in the dark tunnel, and Oghre had a good game. Both Jack and Brad seemed only at about 90%, but Tom was also good.

My standouts for that game were:

Oghre
Tom Willis
Carr
Porter
Spink
Odogwu

The rest were below par. You can't win when only 6 players play well, with two of those coming off the bench.


WonkyWasp

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2022, 08:20:16 AM »
I feel Jacob might not be fulfilling all the promise that  we thought he had  but also something (?Eddie. who gets blamed for everything) (usually correctly)  seems to have happened to take take away his confidence and he now tries too hard - hence the errors.  He might flourish in a new club but  it would be sad to lose him.   

backdoc

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2022, 09:25:47 AM »
I think Tom Willis has injured his right shoulder. It wouldn't surprise me if he was out for a few weeks.

Westy68

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2022, 09:50:09 AM »
I have no problem losing Jacob, at the end of the season he will be 24 years old and still he makes far too many silly mistakes. He is not learning, maybe because its how he is a player or is not well coached.

Professional sport is all about making as least mistakes as possible, which is what the good teams do. We have too many players who make too many mistakes, which then reflects on the good players who then try too hard


hopwood

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2022, 10:41:28 AM »
Dan Robson looks like he’s got a bad case of the Ben-Youngs.
Nasty that….and you need a very strong prescription to clear it up.

But in all seriousness, it looks like Eddie Jones has got into Dan’s head.
He’s looking up all the time, rather than pinging the passes away.
He’s making poor decisions and trying to be too clever about the game, rather than play with the freedom and zip of the much improved Porter.

Eddie would have told Dan what his “work-ons” are….and I believe, Dan wanting to do everything for another chance with England, has got way too much going on in his head.
Paralysis by analysis.

He needs to remember how he played before Eddie Jones got into his head.
He needs to play with self belief and pure freedom, because he’s an outstanding Number 9 when on form.

Porter needs to start next few games.

DGP Wasp

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2022, 10:57:06 AM »
Maybe Mitchell is the problem. Our attack, which is his role, hasn't looked that good all season!

I've thought the same.  Mitchell was a welcome, experienced addition to the coaching team, but is his philosophy at odds with Blackett's own?  It ties in with some of the other comments above about identity and playing style.  If the coaching message to the players is muddled, then that would explain why much of our play is equally so.

Rossm

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2022, 11:07:04 AM »
Maybe Mitchell is the problem. Our attack, which is his role, hasn't looked that good all season!

I've thought the same.  Mitchell was a welcome, experienced addition to the coaching team, but is his philosophy at odds with Blackett's own?  It ties in with some of the other comments above about identity and playing style.  If the coaching message to the players is muddled, then that would explain why much of our play is equally so.

I don't think it's got much if anything to do with Mitch. Our backs need to play a few games together without being unsettled by injuries and a sadly fading Jimmy Gopps. It will also help if Dobby got his mojo back or Will Porter started and played as well as he has done when he comes on as a sub.
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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2022, 12:48:31 PM »
Crikey, Eddie Jones is the devil incarnate for not picking Wasps players, now he is responsible for Wasps poor performances for giving players work ons and being in their head. This board's fascination with EJ is getting absurd.

My 1 thing to fix that would improve our performances, especially yesterday's, would be to stop seeing every tackle as a maul and/or rip opportunity. Too many missed tackles were due to the tackle height being set to attempt a hold up. Tackle low and drop your man. The missed tackle count drops. Rely on your team mates to deal with offloads. On a break it isolates lone runners. Were Northampton carving us open, or were we just missing every first up tackle?

HDAWG

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Re: Northampton Saints v Wasps: Post match thoughts.
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2022, 02:15:12 PM »
Crikey, Eddie Jones is the devil incarnate for not picking Wasps players, now he is responsible for Wasps poor performances for giving players work ons and being in their head. This board's fascination with EJ is getting absurd.

You must be new here, any time a player is out of form we blame EJ. Surprised that wasn't an excuse for Sopoaga...