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Author Topic: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)  (Read 3217 times)

Jac A

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Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« on: April 06, 2022, 02:26:30 PM »
We have a week off so I thought I’d engage in some idle speculation and anticipation by looking at our backs options for next year. Apologies for the length.

SCRUM HALF
Frontline options: Dan Robson (30), Will Porter (23), Francois Hougaard (34), Sam Wolstenholme (23)
Academy/Uni player: Ollie Monye (19)

Just over a year ago there seemed to be a general agreement that Dan Robson was one of if not the best 9 in the Premiership perhaps encapsulated in the ridiculous game at Quins in May where despite a narrow loss, Robson bossed much of the game. Times are different now and Robson is very unlikely to add to his meagre haul test match minutes with the likes of Randall, Quirke, Mitchell and JvP ahead of him and Care now widely regarded as the leagues top 9. Dan’s form this season hasn’t been his best and many, including me, agreed with starting Will Porter ahead of him last weekend. However, his performance off the bench was reminiscent of his pomp, with a perfectly executed drop kick and a lovely draw and give to put Atkinson over for our third try. The likes of Care and Wigglesworth have shown that scrum-halves can continue to be at their best well into their 30s so age isn’t a concern and I’m sure that Dobby’s form will return.

Complimenting Robson, I would say we have the best depth of talent at 9. Will Porter has shown what he can do this season – in recent games he has shown he is fast from the base, quick to spot a snipe, able to tap and go the length and cute and astute with his score against Bristol and work at the base of the scrum. Hougaard may have only had one start at 9 (in a scratch team against Sarries) but he has shown his experience on the wing and will almost certainly be instrumental in working with our youngsters. Wolstenholme may consider himself unlucky: he is good enough to be a starter for a team like Worcester or Newcastle – possibly even Gloucester – and his regular captaincy of our ‘B’ sides shows how well he is though of but the competition is fierce.

If all four are staying then we should have no concerns at 9 next year other than balancing game time.

FLY HALF
Frontline options: Charlie Atkinson (20), Jacob Umaga (23)
Back-ups: Rob Miller (32), Ryan Mills (29), Ali Crossdale (23)
Academy/Uni players: None I know of…
Possible signings: Will Haydon-Wood (21)

Opinions differ on our options at 10. The twitter account RugbyInsideLine for example considers that “Atkinson and Umaga are two of the most promising young fly halves”. Both have been called up to England squads and Jacob has been capped (though perhaps the less said about that the better). However, over the past two seasons, criticism of Jacob in particular has grown and as a result of some of the abuse he received he removed himself from much of social media. On this board there seems to be a feeling that neither are currently the top first five we need.

Jacob is in his 5th season with the club, with his breakthrough being around 2 and a half years ago. He has 68 first team appearances with a respectable 18 tries and a kicking percentage of just over 70% and now seems to be more focused on playing full-back – where he has for Auckland and Yorkshire Carnigie. Charlie is now arguable our first choice 10 and has scored 3 tries in 29 appearances. If he joins, WHW is shorter and lighter, but faster than both Jacob and Charlie and has played 21 games for Newcastle, scoring 2 tries and 78 points.

There are better fly-halves in the Premiership. I would have Ford, Farrell, Smith, Biggar and MacGinty (and Pollard for next year) ahead of any of our options. I am less sure on Sheedy, Simmonds, Hastings or Jackson – they are steady enough and less error prone than Jacob but lack his creativity, vision and excitement and Atkinson I think has a higher potential ceiling than them. Bailey and Fin Smith are contemporaries of Atkinson and how they develop will be interesting, at age group level, they were both perhaps ahead of Charlie but not by much and Charlie has arguably a better team around him.

As with much online discourse, our fly-half situation is a moot point – the trifecta of quality, availability and affordability with the current cap restrictions makes the acquisition of a ‘top’ fly half a near impossibility. I would welcome WHW as it gives us depth, allows Jacob to concentrate on 15, where his vision can shine, and will hopefully allow two quality young players with contrasting styles to push each other.

INSIDE CENTRE
Frontline options: Ryan Mills (29), Burger Odendaal (28), Olly Hartley (20), Mike le Bourgeois (31), Will Simonds (22)
Back-ups: Jacob Umaga (23), Rob Miller (32)
Academy/Uni players: None I know of…

The success of de Allende and Esterhuizen, internationally and domestically respectively, have set the current zeitgeist for inside centres. Whilst once the ‘crash-ball’ 12 was somewhat derided it now appears to be the Holy Grail for every team to have a 12 built like a blind-side flanker. The problem seems to be that finding players with the requisite size, muscle-mass and deftness of both hands and feet to play as well as the aforementioned South Africans is not easy.

Wasps (and England) have, for the past 6 seasons or so, gone with a different policy – using a converted fly-half as a second five-eight. Both Wasps and England were at their most successful recently with Gopperth or Farrell at 12. While England may revert to their captain in the centres, Wasps will have to do without Gopperth and so find themselves at somewhat of a crossroads here. Putting sentimentality aside, Gopperth has (apart from his kicking) not been at his best for Wasps this season, a few darting runs, some good cover tackles and a couple of decent cross-field kicks not withstanding he hasn’t offered as much as an attacking threat as he once did.

Ryan Mills was brought in to replace Gopperth, he started his career at Gloucester at fly-half and is a very capable first receiver and kicker-from-hand. We have seen in his few Wasps appearances that he has the skills and the physicality to add real value to the team. Sadly, his injury record is the main focus. I appreciate why many now think he is made of glass but players can’t help serious injuries – look at Jack Willis and the recent injury records Launchbury as well as Barbeary, Spink and Simonds, but perhaps they get more leeway as they are ‘ours’. Prior to the injury which kept him out for 18 months, Mills’ record wasn’t too bad: 15/16 – 25 games, 16/17 – 15 games, 17/18 – 13 games, 18/19 – 22 games, 19/20 – 20 games; an average of 19 games a season with 90% of those as a starter, scoring 6 tries along the way. I am really hopeful for Mills ending this season strongly and having a good year next year.

Burger Odendaal is a bit unknown here it seems. Some may question his quality as he is not an international – it’s perhaps worth noting here that since 2018 only de Allende, Steyn and Esterhuizen have started at 12 for SA so anyone under 6’ 3” hasn’t had a look in. Odendaal reminds me of a Brad Barritt type player, a leader – both of the team and of the defence. We have lacked a defensive leader in the backs for a while and I think that this maybe why Mitchell (speculating here) has drawn our attention to Burger. He may not make crash-ball smashes through heavy traffic but he can carry, he can break through and he hits hard and gets over the ball too. This season Wasps have started Jimmy or Booj at 12 in 85% of games – if next season we could start Mills or Odendaal in 85% of games I think that that will be an improvement.

While there don’t seem to be any 12s in the academy, Olly Hartley comes into the first team with a lot of promise. Injury has denied him a chance to make an impact this season or play in the U20s Six Nations which is a shame but next season he will hopefully get his chance. If 12 remains a problem position for England, after the World Cup we may see competition between Dan Kelly, Max Ojomoh, Ethan Grayson and Olly Hartley. Both Hartley and Grayson are 6’ 4” and could bulk out to fit the profile of the big 12 everyone seems to want. Hartley started out as a fullback and has the vison and kicking you would expect form that. He’s already shown an eye for a break and a try so all that remains is to see how his defence holds up in the professional game. Will Simonds has been plagued by injuries with only 100 mins of game time and now finds himself someway down the pecking order, however, Blackett seems to have faith in him so he may be able to fill the back-up centre role currently occupied by Booj. Mike has been dealt a rough hand and probably played a lot more a lot sooner than he would have expected when he arrived. If he stays he offers a decent back-up at both 12 and 13 but he is not a starter in a team with top 4 aspirantions.

I know there are some who think we need a top quality 12 but I refer back to the fly-half trifecta and suggest that what we have is pretty good in the circumstances – Mills, Odendaal and Hartley is a pretty good trio in my opinion.

OUTSIDE CENTRE
Frontline options: Paolo Odogwu (25), Sam Spink (22)
Back-ups: Mike le Bourgeois (31), Burger Odendaal (28), Will Simonds (22), Josh Bassett (30)
Academy/Uni players: Reketi Ma’asi-White (19), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (18)

This year we have started no less than six players at 13 in the Premiership (8 when you include the Prem Cup) and at present look set to go into the next season with just two front line options – one with just 10 professionals starts at 13 and one who has played just 21 games in just over 4 years. This, for me, is the worry area. Firstly it’s clear that both Lee and Paolo see him as a 13 next year and he is playing right wing at the moment as we want to get what we can from our marquee former All Black – fine. Secondly Spink has done well this year, he’s a great tackler, has a good offload and runs decent lines. So far, so good, but we are an injury away from serious issues and potentially playing Josh at 13 again in a bizarre Pivac-ian monstrosity of a move. If Booj stays then he can at least provide a back-up who has experience playing there. Odendaal could potentially play there, but his last start at 13 was in 2019. I am happy with Spink and Odogwu at 13 but think that if we are reinforcing the backline then this is where I would focus and look for a player who could provide something similar to Brendan Macken when he was here, not a first choice but a reliable go to when needed. However, it could be our youngsters who provide the answer. Ma’asi-White looked great as he was developing in the U18s but if the Prem Cup is anything to go by, he hasn’t got the positioning or skills to play at a Premiership level – yet. Some more development, coaching and hopefully gametime (something youngsters have been starved of recently) may see him start pushing for first team appearances. In addition, Feyi-Waboso has joined the academy. He seems similar to Paolo but taller – a stocky right-wing converting to outside centre. He’s big, quick and adept at making outside breaks and has already played for the Cardiff senior team so if he continues his development along with his studies he could potentially be in contention this season.

LEFT WING
Frontline options: Josh Bassett (30), Marcus Watson (30), Luke Mehson (23)
Back-ups: Matteo Minozzi (26), Francois Hougaard (34)
Academy/Uni players: Ollie Dawkins (19), Jude Williams (20)?

RIGHT WING
Frontline options: Zach Kibirige (27), Marcus Watson (30), Ali Crossdale (23), Luke Mehson (23)
Back-ups: Matteo Minozzi (26), Francois Hougaard (34), Paolo Odogwu (25)
Academy/Uni players: Toby Baldwin (20) ?, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (18)

Looking at the wings together we have loads of options but not a great deal of absolute quality. Firstly, we may see some departures here – Watson in particular I think is out of contract, not sure on Kibirige. Bassett has been a fixture for a number of years and while he may not have scored many this year he works extremely hard and is very good on the kick chase, especially at restarts. He may benefit from some pressure being applied on him and maybe some rest time too. Luke Mehson may be the player for that. Although he played 14 against Saracens in the Prem Cup when he scored 4 tries, he has played 11 and at 6’ 3” and 14 ½ stone he has the hight and physicality to play there.

On the right wing, Kibirge and Watson are both quick and good broken-field runners but lack star quality that sets them apart, they can both drift out of games and have barren spells without scoring. Hougaard is an excellent defensive winger and if Jacob is at 15, both Minozzi and Crossdale have experience on the wings but we have never replaced Wade with a winger who genuinely scares the opposition. I am not sure if there are any such wingers on the market at the moment but I would like to think that if a player like Radwan, Loader, Sleightholme or Heward were looking to move that we would be interested.

We have some young wingers who seem to have not had many opportunities, injures and university obvious have impacted but Dawkins looks good and Jude Williams did so will be interesting to see if we see anything from these guys or if they end up like Owain James.

FULL BACK
Frontline options: Jacob Umaga (23), Ali Crossdale (23), Rob Miller (32), Matteo Minozzi (26)
Back-ups: Marcus Watson (30), Luke Mehson (23), Charlie Atkinson (20), Zach Kibirige (27)
Academy/Uni players: Tom Bacon (21)?

Fan consensus seems to be Crossdale while the coaches disagree and are going Umaga. I’m surprised Minozzi is staying, sadly it just hasn’t worked out and I don’t see it improving next year. Miller is another I am not sure if he is staying or not – I hope so as he offers experience, cover and seems to be a well liked team member.

Similar to 13, we have had 6 starters at 15 this year (plus Cam Anderson in the first two Prem Cup games – I have omitted Cameron from this as with only six games and two starts in four years and little from Lee to suggest otherwise, I am not sure whether he has much of a part to play next year). If Jacob can nail down the position, I think that will benefit the team. He has excellent vision, can counter attach well and come in at second receiver when necessary. Interestingly (perhaps) the three breakdown penalties he gave away against Gloucester were his first of the season. While yes, we can criticise the decision to run into contact without support, the rest of the team need to know that when Jacob spots a gap he will go and you need to go with him to make sure he doesn’t get isolated – they all need to be loud and vocal and clear in where the support is needed: it is not just Jacob’s fault. Both Jacob and Ali Crossdale need to work on their defence too, Jacob with positioning and Ali with tackling. 15 is probably our weakest area, when I look round the Prem I would take most other teams’ fullback. I’d have been happy if we could have signed Ant Watson – even for the few games he would have been available but as that won’t happen, I hope that we can work on Jacob and Ali perfecting full-back play.

SUMMARY

Will we sign Will Haydon-Wood?
Will we lose any of Booj, Watson or Miller?
Will we sign cover for outside centre?

These are the questions I still have but ultimately I’m not sure how much they matter. In most positions we have a really good depth, perhaps at the expense of exceptional quality. Looking at two potential teams I’m sure we would have differences of opinions about who was first choice but there are two strong potential back lines there:

Robson, Atkinson, Bassett, Mills, Odogwu, Kibirige, Umaga

Porter, Haydon-Wood (?), Watson, Odendaal, Spink, Crossdale

And that still leaves a side which would be a very good Prem Cup team:

Wusty, Miller, Mehson, Hartley, Simonds/Booj, Hougaard, Minozzi

Thanks if you’ve stayed with me. Interested to hear other opinions, anyone I've missed, thoughts on youngsters, who you would sign, why I'm wrong etc.

JonnyD

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2022, 02:53:39 PM »
Great post, I posted similar about our younger wingers on another post, the Owain James comparison is good.
I definitely wouldn’t have wanted Antony Watson but I won’t disagree with anything else you e written there.

Forgot we had signed Feyi-Waboso so look forward to seeing how he gets on


Mellie

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2022, 02:58:01 PM »
Interesting read. Well written and very balanced and fair.

2nd line backs lack a winger, assuming Crossdale is 15. Maybe we will be getting someone in or promoted.

Agree that the above players give us reasonable depth and quality commensurate with salary cap.

Rossm

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2022, 03:05:22 PM »
Great post indeed. I would venture an opinion that Jacob was brought into the England setup perhaps a season too early. Needed more time to hone his skills. I certainly believe when we got him back, he was damaged goods mentally and has not yet fully recovered. A spell at FB may well be of benefit to him and he may yet regain the 10 shirt.
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Jac A

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2022, 03:25:30 PM »
I posted similar about our younger wingers on another post, the Owain James comparison is good.

I definitely wouldn’t have wanted Antony Watson

Just seen that. I think it's interesting to note that we haven't had an academy winger come through and get decent game time pretty much since Christian. Almost all other teams have brought through young flyers, I wonder why we seem to just specialise in back-rows!

Dawkins has the potential for me (so did/does Jude though) the Eng U20s look a bit weak up front and at half back particuarly but have good wings so no shame in Ollie not getting much game time there.

Re Ant Watson - I think I'd be in a minority but if Minozzi had been off I think he would have provided a bit of star quality but wages and injuries make it a real gamble.

2nd line backs lack a winger, assuming Crossdale is 15. Maybe we will be getting someone in or promoted.


Doh! I suppose I would 'promote' Mehson or Hougaard and put Dawkins in the 'A' side. Does make me think a winger would certainly be needed if Watson isn't staying.

I would venture an opinion that Jacob was brought into the England setup perhaps a season too early. Needed more time to hone his skills. I certainly believe when we got him back, he was damaged goods mentally and has not yet fully recovered. A spell at FB may well be of benefit to him and he may yet regain the 10 shirt.

Good points. I don't subscribe to the 'Eddie ruins players' approach all that much but I don't think England in the summer helped Jacob at all and he seems like a player who needs confidence.

Interesting that this could be a stop gap to getting back to 10 - I could see that.

egg shaped man

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2022, 03:27:02 PM »
Great Post! Very informative.

One thing missing which with Gopps going is, who kicks for goal ? And what effect does that have on selection ?

Jac A

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2022, 03:44:31 PM »

One thing missing which with Gopps going is, who kicks for goal ? And what effect does that have on selection ?

For me, Jacob if he's playing.

The last three seasons his strike rate has been 71.43%, 79.59% and 71.43% (bizarre that this year and 2019/20 are the same). Jimmy this year is on 73.91% so not that far ahead. While not amazing it is acceptable and around the same as Fin Smith, Paddy Jackson and AJ MacGinty. If he could get it up to around 75% that is perfectly fine - Ford, Marcus Smith, Joe Simmonds territory - so I don't think we would be as heavily impacted as some think.

I know there is often the question of 'does he just take the easier kicks?' but Wasps generally have the principle of a designated kicker for the match so if that is Jacob, he will kick all place kicks and likewise Jimmy - it isn't generally the case that Jimmy takes the trickier shots. Jimmy might try a few more speculative penalties but I don't think this would be enough to skew the stats massively.

I won't deny that losing Jimmy as a kicker is a blow but I wouldn't look to select based on who kicks best.

If he signs, Will Haydon-Wood is a decent kicker too (75.86%).

baldpaul101

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2022, 04:09:53 PM »
Quote
I would venture an opinion that Jacob was brought into the England setup perhaps a season too early. Needed more time to hone his skills. I certainly believe when we got him back, he was damaged goods mentally and has not yet fully recovered.

Its worth remembering that after his first England training squad call up Lee said how good it had been for him & he came back a much improved player.

Rifleman Harris

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2022, 04:19:22 PM »
Quote
I would venture an opinion that Jacob was brought into the England setup perhaps a season too early. Needed more time to hone his skills. I certainly believe when we got him back, he was damaged goods mentally and has not yet fully recovered.

Its worth remembering that after his first England training squad call up Lee said how good it had been for him & he came back a much improved player.

Could he say much else?

WonkyWasp

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2022, 04:34:33 PM »
Thanks Jac A.  That post is deeply impressive.

baldpaul101

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2022, 04:45:04 PM »
Quote
Could he say much else?

He didn't have to say anything. I certainly don't remember him saying anything about Jacobs more recent call ups.
I mean you are potentially right, but if we ignore comments from the coaching team that don't agree with our pre-conceptions, what's the point of listening to what they say in the first place?

Rossm

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2022, 04:53:24 PM »
I certainly don't disregard what Lee said but my eyes tell me that Jacob was better before he went than when he returned.
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RogerE

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2022, 05:49:55 PM »
One thing missing which with Gopps going is, who kicks for goal ? And what effect does that have on selection ?

As last weeks match showed, we have someone who can kick like Gopperth - Miller

Shugs

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2022, 06:00:22 PM »
Agree with most of that. For me likely if not inevitable departures are Watson, Minozzi and Hougaard. That’s on top of Gopperth and Fekitoa. Looking at what that leaves it’s hard not to see that we don’t need another centre ( probably one who prefers 13). The rest looks ok to me with youth given it’s chance on the wings. It also relies on Haydon-Wood signing to give us the flexibility at 15 via freeing Umaga up.

Jac A

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Re: Backs - Thoughts on next season (long)
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 06:12:59 PM »
Agree with most of that. For me likely if not inevitable departures are Watson, Minozzi and Hougaard. That’s on top of Gopperth and Fekitoa. Looking at what that leaves it’s hard not to see that we don’t need another centre ( probably one who prefers 13). The rest looks ok to me with youth given it’s chance on the wings. It also relies on Haydon-Wood signing to give us the flexibility at 15 via freeing Umaga up.

I thought Minozzi would be off this year, but he has said he's got another year at least in this article https://www.gazzetta.it/Rugby/01-04-2022/rugby-minozzi-italia-competitiva-potre-giocare-capuozzo-2020-non-ero-infortunato-4302118813078.shtml. Actually quite interesting, I didn't realise just what he has gone through the last year, "in September I had a microfracture in the head of the fibula, then I suffered two concussions in a row. I had memory problems, I woke up in the morning and after having breakfast I did not remember what I had eaten. As soon as I started training again I had Covid, I was positive 24 days and I had breathing problems. I was quite sick and I was completely available only at the end of February"

Hougaard possibly, though I'd be surprised if we only went with a one year contract.

Watson I do expect to go.