Its time to get angry!

[hopwood]

Disagree. We were dominant for the first 65 minutes yesterday. Both benches came on and that changed the game - hats off to Arundell particularly and it was a poor decision by Porter to take a tap penalty - not sure that is a culture or DOR problem.

I think you missed my point. I'm not specifically talking about the one game. I'm talking about the fact that we are now a nailed on bottom half club. That we are no longer a threat to other teams. That we ALWAYS have a ready excuse as.to why we failed to perform, or only played half a game.

Good post.
Good perspective.



Can you honestly say that you are happy with the way we have performed over the last 2 seasons?

I can't.

And I also can't see how just hoping we might get better ecentually is actually a decent strategy to improve things.

If we as a club don't change something, nothing will change.

My point of view on this is that these periods are what supporting a team is all about. Not questioning anyone’s commitment but just that the expectation that we should be always top 4 and challenging is a unrealistic. Apart from the team that has not operated inside the rules no one has really had that dominance. We had some nailed on top 4 years, Exeter have had a few, now we’re seeing Tigers and Quins but also the likes of Saints challenging again. It’s ifs buts and maybes but I think we’d have been pushing top 4 without our injuries this year. I agree next year we definitely need to see progress and be in around top 4. The cycle then turns again.

[Westy68]

And if we are not around the top 4, will it be a case of we are in a transition, which seems to have gone on for years. Or the players are tired or something else.

With the players coming in and supposedly 3 more coming in that are supposed to be an improvement on the current crop then I agree top 4 is possible and top 6 is a minimum requirement.

If we are still around 8/9 next season then something definitely is wrong, no more excuses

[Shugs]

Agree Westy - we need to see an improvement next year. Everyone bar Tigers is probably saying the same and aiming to do it. I think we are improving our squad as others are weakening but we’ll not know until some games are played.

[Rossm]

Does anyone know if Mitch will still be with us next season? I thought our defence was formidable for the first 65 minutes yesterday.

[Jac A]

I think you missed my point. I'm not specifically talking about the one game. I'm talking about the fact that we are now a nailed on bottom half club. That we are no longer a threat to other teams. That we ALWAYS have a ready excuse as.to why we failed to perform, or only played half a game.

Can you honestly say that you are happy with the way we have performed over the last 2 seasons?

I can't.

And I also can't see how just hoping we might get better ecentually is actually a decent strategy to improve things.

If we as a club don't change something, nothing will change.

I don't buy that we are a 'nailed on bottom half club' - we might well finish in the bottom half this season but currently we are just 2 points off 6th. We are a one of a group of clubs that for most of the season have been closely packed together with very little to separate them.

So far we have played the five teams ahead of us twice except Sale: so 9 games, we have won 4 of them and lost 4 and drawn 1. The points difference between Saints and us +1 (to us), Gloucester and us +4, Exeter -4, Sale -8 (home game still to come), Irish +8. That's a net points difference of +1. You can barely separate us. Even if we do finish 9th, there will not be a lot to separate us and which ever team finish 4th.

Totally agree with Steve and Shugs. In the last few years, Leicester have been in the doldrums and would have been relegated if not for the Sarries shenanigans. Gloucester were 11th last year, Saints and Quins have both been in the bottom half a few times. We by contrast got to the final a couple of years ago. Yes we have had a couple of bad seasons but we have been close - after 22 games we have 60 points (we had 50 last year so maybe progress?) we have been in with a shout of the top 4 up until this weekend. We have beaten Saracens, Leicester, Exeter, Toulouse etc - it hasn't been all bad and we can't always be the best.

Also, we are not the only team Irish have done this to remember. They came back from 31-14 down against Sale and 34-8 against Saracens so it isn't just us being fragile - I wouldn't accuses Sale or Saracens of that and I don't think that either team lack fight.

[westwaleswasp]

All this talk of challenging for top 4 is a bit misleading- every year a team sneaks in 4th, and generally does nothing- does anyone expect Saints to do anything at Tigers in a semi?
Top 2 to 3 is the benchmark, 4 th makes teams feel better, but in reality there is nothing between 4th and 6th most years., and a chasm somewhere above 4th. Sneaking a semi will feel awesome for Saints fans, it won't leave them closer to a pot. Sure they will have a chance- but it is the same chance Scotland have playing at home vs the All Blacks. Wasps need to aim to be top 3 next year with the signings made and promise we have. Incremental progress year on year won't lead to us in a final in 3 years, by then guys will have moved on or become established internationals etc. There is huge promise in this team, but bigger question marks that need to go.   

[Westy68]

I think you missed my point. I'm not specifically talking about the one game. I'm talking about the fact that we are now a nailed on bottom half club. That we are no longer a threat to other teams. That we ALWAYS have a ready excuse as.to why we failed to perform, or only played half a game.

Can you honestly say that you are happy with the way we have performed over the last 2 seasons?

I can't.

And I also can't see how just hoping we might get better ecentually is actually a decent strategy to improve things.

If we as a club don't change something, nothing will change.

I don't buy that we are a 'nailed on bottom half club' - we might well finish in the bottom half this season but currently we are just 2 points off 6th. We are a one of a group of clubs that for most of the season have been closely packed together with very little to separate them.

So far we have played the five teams ahead of us twice except Sale: so 9 games, we have won 4 of them and lost 4 and drawn 1. The points difference between Saints and us +1 (to us), Gloucester and us +4, Exeter -4, Sale -8 (home game still to come), Irish +8. That's a net points difference of +1. You can barely separate us. Even if we do finish 9th, there will not be a lot to separate us and which ever team finish 4th.

Totally agree with Steve and Shugs. In the last few years, Leicester have been in the doldrums and would have been relegated if not for the Sarries shenanigans. Gloucester were 11th last year, Saints and Quins have both been in the bottom half a few times. We by contrast got to the final a couple of years ago. Yes we have had a couple of bad seasons but we have been close - after 22 games we have 60 points (we had 50 last year so maybe progress?) we have been in with a shout of the top 4 up until this weekend. We have beaten Saracens, Leicester, Exeter, Toulouse etc - it hasn't been all bad and we can't always be the best.

Also, we are not the only team Irish have done this to remember. They came back from 31-14 down against Sale and 34-8 against Saracens so it isn't just us being fragile - I wouldn't accuses Sale or Saracens of that and I don't think that either team lack fight.

Getting into the top 4 2 years ago was very fortunate, as we played a lot of teams who had to rest players. I would admit the semi and final we played well.

This season we played a injury hit Leicester and Sarries. Do you think we would beat a fully fit tigers or Sarries.

Losing 28 points over a 13 minute period is the problem

[Rossm]

Will someone perhaps give some credit to Irish. They, particularly Arundell, played very well.

[Westy68]

Of course Irish played well but when someone tackles like Charlie on arundell for his try, that is more poor from Charlie rather then Arundell being some kind of wizard, he should have been knocked into next week by Charlie

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Will someone perhaps give some credit to Irish. They, particularly Arundell, played very well.

Irish have played really well all season. They have heart and never give up. I  wonder if the move to Brentford has helped, it's got so much more atmosphere than the madstad ever did.

[Egret]

All this talk of challenging for top 4 is a bit misleading- every year a team sneaks in 4th, and generally does nothing- does anyone expect Saints to do anything at Tigers in a semi?

We're Quin's 4th last year?

[Shugs]

I think you missed my point. I'm not specifically talking about the one game. I'm talking about the fact that we are now a nailed on bottom half club. That we are no longer a threat to other teams. That we ALWAYS have a ready excuse as.to why we failed to perform, or only played half a game.

Can you honestly say that you are happy with the way we have performed over the last 2 seasons?

I can't.

And I also can't see how just hoping we might get better ecentually is actually a decent strategy to improve things.

If we as a club don't change something, nothing will change.

I don't buy that we are a 'nailed on bottom half club' - we might well finish in the bottom half this season but currently we are just 2 points off 6th. We are a one of a group of clubs that for most of the season have been closely packed together with very little to separate them.

So far we have played the five teams ahead of us twice except Sale: so 9 games, we have won 4 of them and lost 4 and drawn 1. The points difference between Saints and us +1 (to us), Gloucester and us +4, Exeter -4, Sale -8 (home game still to come), Irish +8. That's a net points difference of +1. You can barely separate us. Even if we do finish 9th, there will not be a lot to separate us and which ever team finish 4th.

Totally agree with Steve and Shugs. In the last few years, Leicester have been in the doldrums and would have been relegated if not for the Sarries shenanigans. Gloucester were 11th last year, Saints and Quins have both been in the bottom half a few times. We by contrast got to the final a couple of years ago. Yes we have had a couple of bad seasons but we have been close - after 22 games we have 60 points (we had 50 last year so maybe progress?) we have been in with a shout of the top 4 up until this weekend. We have beaten Saracens, Leicester, Exeter, Toulouse etc - it hasn't been all bad and we can't always be the best.

Also, we are not the only team Irish have done this to remember. They came back from 31-14 down against Sale and 34-8 against Saracens so it isn't just us being fragile - I wouldn't accuses Sale or Saracens of that and I don't think that either team lack fight.

Getting into the top 4 2 years ago was very fortunate, as we played a lot of teams who had to rest players. I would admit the semi and final we played well.

This season we played a injury hit Leicester and Sarries. Do you think we would beat a fully fit tigers or Sarries.

Losing 28 points over a 13 minute period is the problem

To be honest this is the point of view I really don’t get. Significant wins for us = the opposition had some issues. Dip in form for us = no exceptional circumstances allowed to be considered.

[westwaleswasp]

@egret
Yes, which is why I said generally.
Their Jan onwards form, however, was top, they name a huge mess of the first 3 months.
I believe they are the only 4th placed team to win it, ever.
Home draw wins in the play offs are pushing 90 pc win rate last I looked.

[hopwood]

Disagree. We were dominant for the first 65 minutes yesterday. Both benches came on and that changed the game - hats off to Arundell particularly and it was a poor decision by Porter to take a tap penalty - not sure that is a culture or DOR problem.

I think you missed my point. I'm not specifically talking about the one game. I'm talking about the fact that we are now a nailed on bottom half club. That we are no longer a threat to other teams. That we ALWAYS have a ready excuse as.to why we failed to perform, or only played half a game.

Can you honestly say that you are happy with the way we have performed over the last 2 seasons?

I can't.

And I also can't see how just hoping we might get better ecentually is actually a decent strategy to improve things.

If we as a club don't change something, nothing will change.

My point of view on this is that these periods are what supporting a team is all about. Not questioning anyone’s commitment but just that the expectation that we should be always top 4 and challenging is a unrealistic. Apart from the team that has not operated inside the rules no one has really had that dominance. We had some nailed on top 4 years, Exeter have had a few, now we’re seeing Tigers and Quins but also the likes of Saints challenging again. It’s ifs buts and maybes but I think we’d have been pushing top 4 without our injuries this year. I agree next year we definitely need to see progress and be in around top 4. The cycle then turns again.

Good post.
Good perspective.

[JonnyD]

Does anyone know if Mitch will still be with us next season? I thought our defence was formidable for the first 65 minutes yesterday.

Remember that this is on Everard this year. I’m sure Mitch has a massive helping hand though. We will have to see how his international commitments occupy his time next season and whether he’ll be more of a consultant moving forward. He doesn’t stick in one place long these days does he?

Also though Charlie should have absolutely flattened Arundell, he was never getting the ball so just needed to time it to smash him.
Will be interesting to see how Arundell develops, thought he looked arrogant in the U20s rarely passing to anyone else, looked better this time around though