Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Expectations  (Read 4928 times)

Jac A

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Expectations
« on: May 15, 2022, 09:51:20 AM »
With no chance of silverware now I've been thinking about what do we expect next year.

I'll put Wombles quote from the Post Match thread here as an example but I've seen similar and a I'm sure everyone has an idea of what they expect.
The coaching team have been together long enough to realise that another season without silverware should see their end. Wasps as a club need to recognise they are underperforming and with the facilities at their disposal that there are now no more excuses.

I'm not sure I agree with the above but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.

Winning in Europe is a pipe dream: this year there were no English clubs in the Champions Cup semi finals and there are no English clubs in either final. Next year, we, along with all English teams loose a marquee spot and a significant chunk of salary cap which will make it more difficult to compete with the French and Irish powerhouses. Look back to yesterday as Lyon brought 5 internationals off their bench.
A [poster on the Saracens site made what I think is a good analogy to being a Championship football club - able to enjoy a great and competitive domestic league with the change of an FA Cup run but ultimately you will be beaten by the big boys.

So that leaves the Premiership. Saracens, Leicester and to a slightly lesser extend Harlequins have better squads, better coaching set ups and more established game plans than us and will be almost certainly be up at the top which leaves us in a group behind which, in my opinion have barely a knat's nacker between them - us, Saints, Glaws, Exeter, Sale, Irish and possibly Bristol. This season has shown that we can all beat each other and the race for the fourth play-off spot has been competitive to almost the end of the season.

As the Premiership is our only real chance of a trophy, is not winning it, in such a competitive league, really a failure?

Since 2013/14 (admittedly an arbitrary choice) only 3 teams have won and only 5 teams have made the final (including us twice).

Are we looking for improvement? If so, how are we measuring it. We are 22 games into the season at the moment (so same number as previous years). Compared to last year we have 10 more points, won 2 more games, scored 58 more points and conceded 60 fewer points - is this progress/improvement? Is it just based on league position (in which case we have to compete with a factor we cannot control in other teams' improvement/quality).

So my questions for poster here, just to get an idea of what we as a fan-base seem to be expecting are:

What does good look like next year? and What would constitute a bad season?

Westy68

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2022, 10:04:07 AM »
Seeing the backs score more trys then the forwards

wasps

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2022, 10:04:17 AM »



To be honest, I just want to be excited to watch Wasps play.


If that results in play offs, silverware etc. Then that's great.
If it means finishing 5th/6th, then so be it.




I'm worried that we're going to become an identikit premiership team next season.
Big strong forward pack, backs to try to take advantage of forward dominance.


As an ex-forward I should be happy with that, but it just doesn't feel like the Wasps way, so I have reservations.


As I've said before, I'm willing to give Lee another season to see if he can learn what's gone wrong during various parts of the last season or so and put it right. I feel all coaching teams deserve that.
His answer appears to be some more forwards and a tweak to his coaches.
Let's see how that plays out next season

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2022, 10:06:47 AM »
I agree about Europe, its looking fanciful for any Premiership team to expect to win it. A semi-final spot is probably the best that can be hoped for and maybe should be seen as a success.

In the Premiership I'd say top 4 should be seen as the equivalent of "silverware" on the basis of its knock-out rugby and anything can happen with regular top 2 being the medium term goal so you get home semi-finals.


Neils

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 10:13:24 AM »
I agree about Europe, its looking fanciful for any Premiership team to expect to win it. A semi-final spot is probably the best that can be hoped for and maybe should be seen as a success.

In the Premiership I'd say top 4 should be seen as the equivalent of "silverware" on the basis of its knock-out rugby and anything can happen with regular top 2 being the medium term goal so you get home semi-finals.

Would tend to agree with this.

I just want to walk away from a match thinking we have done well without the what ifs of this season.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Jac A

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2022, 10:17:22 AM »

I just want to walk away from a match thinking we have done well without the what ifs of this season.

Whilst I think I get what you mean, isn't that inevitable if we lose by a tight margin? In every game there will be opportunities missed by every team. Does that mean we are either victors or comprehensively beaten if we have no 'what-ifs'?

RogerE

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2022, 10:19:45 AM »
A bit of realism.

We are one of the only three premiership clubs that has never been relegated, and if it weren't for Saracens and COVID would likely be the only one.

This season we have had the most diruption of any team squad, but, based on form since we started to get over the injuries have had a premiership record that, if we had managed it from the stsrt of the season, would have seen us top four.
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No team (with the exception of Sarries of course) has a divine right to be ultra successful. I have always thought of us as a good team that, ocassionally, has shot well above its weight.

However for the last 65 years it has been MY team, and I will continue to support it, even if other supporters are slagging-off the forwards, the backs, the coaches, the quality of the pies sold in the stadium outlets or anything else.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2022, 10:32:15 AM »
Rugby is, all other things being equal a bit of a lottery as to whether you win or not. What is on paper at the start of the match goes out the window the moment that whistle blows.

It would be foolish to simply say every game is a matter of chance, 50/50 as to who will win, by how much, and will it be a draw type of questions. If that were the case, then the bulk of clubs would, after a hard and long season, will be within a few points of each other. A look at the current able says that is what we have already. 3 at the top, two at the bottom, the rest much of a muchness.

Rugby game outcomes (who wins) are often down to the human factor. A mis-kick, a brain fart, a slip, a gust of wind. To not expect those to happen would be unreasonable. And, don't forget, the officials.

As the full effects of the salary cap start to bite next year (and one thing I expect is more than one club will overspend), the overseas portion of club squads will diminish, and those internationals that remain will be lesser known, cheaper, players like Jimmy. The big names will go to France or Japan. Players like Fekitoa, or Faf de Klerk will be gone. In the short term clubs will have to manage expectations of the higher earners, the jewels in their squad. We worry that players will move on, to other Premiership clubs or abroad.

I think we will start to see a trend towards clubs with bigger squads, but less stardust. Where team cohesion on the field improves, more like we would have seen with school age level teams. Where players cannot expect to play more than every other game. It won't be a case of Tom or Alfie at number 8, it will be a case of whose 'turn' is it this week?

Very few players should expect to be 'nailed on' to the team sheet every week. Yes, injuries, with their somewhat random nature, will create situations where a player does play almost every week, but that should not be the norm. As a result, squads will be pushed towards every player potentially being the same quality as the other squad members in that position.

Those players who show a tendency to injury, or who rarely step up to the first team level, will find contracts not being renewed.

In a way, the Exeter model.

So, is it wrong for any fan to expect their club to get the silverware? Yes. But, with the inevitably of randomness, each year a few teams will shine, and a few teams will do badly.

I am far from convinced it is a coaching issue, or even a player issue. It simply is what it is - a game where random events conspire to give a team a win on the day. Does anyone honestly believe that the Edinburgh game was not a prime example of that?

Rugby is a game where you should be able to rock up for a game and hope to see a good, fairly balanced contest, without the myopic vision a 'fan' of one of the teams might bring.

I think that is what we are more likely to see from next season onwards, unless something foolish happens with the salary cap (or a team cheats the cap, which I really think one or two will do).

I do think that the much larger cap in France will see European honours going mainly to French sides. But, littered as their teams now are with overseas imports, the national team will not do as well. Conversely, I think the English national game has the potential to do better, with younger players being given greater opportunities at club level. I do not expect England to actually do better, because its entire upper structure is corrupt (not necessarily monetary corruption) and not fit for purpose. That upper structure is also watching the slow decline of the sport at youth level, especially in schools. There has long been an uncomfortable tension between school teams and local clubs, but it is the local clubs (with the exception of a few notable private schools) that have won, and the schools now prefer to steer their youth towards other sports.

So, do I think we will need to, or even be able to, import more players? No, not unless the 'right' players becomes available (that their current club doesn't want them, or they want to move on).

Do I think we need to clear out the coaching staff? No. Based on results alone, the teams we field are doing OK.

Could we be better? Of course, on any day, the luck could go our way.

Do I agree with Wombles? No. I think it is time Lee stopped offering excuses. Instead, he should be saying, that was a good game of rugby to watch.

Brandnewtorugby

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2022, 11:17:49 AM »
I found this entry that gives some perspective, if not quite complete;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2022%E2%80%9323_Premiership_Rugby_transfers

I think Wasps are likely to emerge next season in a relatively better place than most other clubs because it feels like they started this process of bringing in academy earlier than most other clubs. It seems to take most championship and academy players a year or two to start to show, obviously some notable exceptions. So I think other teams are in for a couple of years of disruption as Wasps have started to settle.

I really don't think the backs are far off. They were a few sympathetic passes away from beating a French team full of internationals.

"Of the eight semi-finalists across the Heineken Champions Cup and Challenge Cup, five are French with only Leinster, in the top competition, and Saracens and Wasps, in the second-tier one, breaking the Top 14 monopoly."
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 11:29:59 AM by Brandnewtorugby »

Shugs

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2022, 11:23:25 AM »
I think it’s a good question. The first thing to mention in Europe is that we’re not competing on a level playing field. So any expectation there needs tempering with that fact in mind. Where I believe we are is that we can give anyone a game - reference Toulouse, Tigers, Sarries, Lyon. But - we’re not yet able to achieve the consistency we need. That’s probably down to squad depth. But for me that’s what success would look like next season - more consistency. Or to put it another way success would look like entering the second 40 yesterday and really believing we would win. For me at full tilt we’re a very good team and we shouldn’t forget that. Development next year would be demonstrating that more often.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2022, 12:49:16 PM »
In athletics people talk of medal contention and podium. A phrase used in gaming circles is 'top table' derived from the fact that the more matches you win the smaller the table number you play on, with the 'top tables' being the single digit numbers. Wasps need to be podium contenders, a need to be on the top tables. That does not mean winning trophies, it means being in with a shout of them- top 3 or thereabouts, and capable of beating top teams away. Not league over in March.

We are not far away from having a ceiling that allows us to beat top teams away, we are close on having a fine 2022 home record. What we do have is a very low floor. Most teams are capable of beating each other in the league, which can obscure long term trends.
Our DNA is to play and frankly if we cannot we won't beat other teams who can match our forwards. Right now we have gone backwards in the backs, and so whilst we have a great back row and ever more solid set piece, nobody fears us. That I what I want- I want opposing teams to think they are in with a chance, but also to think that if they are 2 pc off they could be stuffed by a ruthless Wasps team capable of winning by 40.


Marlow Nick

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2022, 01:36:50 PM »
I agree.

My definition of success next season ...

Qualifying for the knockout stages of European Cup
Comfortably in the Premiership top 6 and fighting for top 4
Regaining a reputation that teams fear us rather than expect to come away with 5 points
Stop the brain darts and prove we can play for 80 minutes week in week out

mike909

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2022, 01:40:58 PM »
To agree with what others have said above, I think we have the tools - but we've too rarely been able to put out a consistent selection of our better players. We've seen how that can change with the pack. Our forwards performances have looked good and they should, given our first choice pack per yesterday and vs Edinburgh is the equal of any.

But the key improvement will be to deliver a backs performance with the coherence of the first 60 vs LI and have available a more regular selection of our better players.....

The other area that would constitute improvement for next season would be in on field leadership. It was mentioned in postings last evening after the game, after LI and after actually winning vs Edinburgh.... Regardless of our ability to select our best players and have fewer injury issues, we need to start playing using tactics and decision making that doesn't undermine the good work we're doing. We didn't win games/comps by making poor decisions. Lol would have gone mad at some of the stupidity in recent games vs LI, Edinburgh and Lyon....

Watching Wasps is - for me - supposed to be entertainment. That doesn't mean playing into the hands of our opposition.....Sure, we'll take risks, but they have to be tempered somewhat by the need recognise the risk/reward angle and what at that time is best for the team. Too often we've been guilty or poor value risk taking.

Just to add - as noted below, we nearly won the Prem with a positive attitude, but it wasn't about recklessly throwing hail mary passes - it was playing what was in front of us and having the confidence that the team and coaches were backing that style of play.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 04:31:37 PM by mike909 »

hopwood

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2022, 03:03:08 PM »
Just watching the highlights of Finn Russell.
Wow. It just shows the polar opposites to how we are currently setup to play.
We don’t have players at 10, 12, 13 who can consistently and confidently take the ball to the line and offload to other players - all on the same wave length….and punch holes.

And all who have rehearsed these moves over and over in training.

Throwing it out there, but (although I know it’s not possible) I would take Cips as an attack coach next season.
Hypothetically.

Marcus Smith and Quins have Nick Evans.
Those two feed off each other brilliantly.

Wasps need to create that level of confidence and creativity.
But have we got the right environment…with the necessary elite experience?
Simple answer….no.
Up front….absolutely yes. Maybe Top 5 in Europe. Got that potential.
In the backs….absolutely not. We look weak minded, especially with the loss of Jimmy and his calm head (but now slow legs).
There’s fragility in most of the minds of our starting backs.
That all originates with recruitment decisions and the head attacking coach

The buck stops there.
If you choose to stick with young playmakers….then you need an experienced and creative head to guide them.
Gleeson was probably that guy.
Not sure we’ve filled that void.

Loved to be proved wrong…but surely you need someone with actual on-field wisdom, at the elite end of rugby competition? Or someone with a very creative mind…as defences are harder and harder to break down.

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2022, 03:42:57 PM »
For me I don't really care about silverware.  It's always fun when we are in with a shout, and when we won in the past it was great.

But.

I care more about seeing Wasps players get try of the week, I care more about seeing our players in pundits teams of the week. I care more about the flashy moments of amazing skill and ridiculous stuff that somehow managed to come off.

I support wasps more for the glorious moments than the overall points.

Whether that is Jack stealing the ball from their ruck 1m off our line, Beale suckering the opposition with an offload out the back of the hand, Cips, finding a gap that didn't exist until he put someone in it. Wade running in his sixth try of the day. Smashley kicking out of hand down the line as if he'd forgotten he wasn't a winger.

The list is huge, but all these things come from a team that play like they love the game and believe in their own abilities. It doesn't feel like we have any of that right now.

Yes we might be doing just fine on paper, but it's hard to really care about a team that doesn't look like they care either...
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