Squad 22/23

[mike909]

Talking fine margins but for me Cruse is still our best hooker. And if we’re talking a fully available squad surely Koch has to start. Completely agree re Cardall - I think he’s outstanding.

In terms of first game - Koch is probably best brought in carefully, post RC games and some time off. Re hooker - I'd have agreed halfway through last season - I just got the feel that Oghre really grew during the second half and his durability over 1,000 min Prem time)  and stints in the backrow and increasing number of scores meant that for me - with excellent props in West and Alo, he probably starts the season in pole. But as stated above - great problem to have with Frost and Cruse.

[BlackAndGoldSunglasses]

The next cabs of the rank in the academy make for an interesting side note when the squad looks a little light.

You’d expect Alfie Bell to get some gametime somewhere this year and 6ft8 homegrown locks are pretty hard to come by.
Tunney, Cripps, Fisilau and Fin Brown will all be just behind Curran, waiting in the wings, Brown has the size for 6 and will get some experience playing at Moseley this year - the other 3 might all end up at 7 eventually so not sure if all will push on to the senior squad.
Mario Pichardie has also potentially left, have seen that he released a highlights video a while back and hasn’t appeared in any of the behind the scenes footage.

Ma’asi White will get some more experience in the centres this year and although I’ve not seen him play, Feyi-Waboso was thought highly of at Cardiff might be next in line for a run on the wing if we’re very short, Bacon has featured before and Rakodrava looks to have some potential.

In the props with Nearchou, Pleasants, Hardwick and McArthur we also look well set for the future.

The academy is definitely bearing fruit but it’s time for these guys to take squad positions now and be solid options making us look stronger on paper - especially in the centres.

I'll be honest, I've not seen a lot of the academy lads play. Ma'asi-White and Fisilau looked useful in the couple of games in the U20s Summer tournament that I caught. Ma'asi-White in particular looked a pretty explosive runner, although I did feel his distribution was a "work on".

Great to see / hear that we are genuinely bringing through quality, and if they are the next cabs off the rank then good luck to them!

[SteveTodd]

Could someone please remind me what year relegation is likely to be re-introduced, I've forgotten what has been said about it.

[SteveTodd]

Found it: Premiership Rugby confirmed yesterday that it plans to reinstate relegation from the 2023-24 season, introducing a play-off between the Championship winners and the top-flight's bottom side.(dated 2 Jun 2022)

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Talking fine margins but for me Cruse is still our best hooker. And if we’re talking a fully available squad surely Koch has to start. Completely agree re Cardall - I think he’s outstanding.

I agree. I'd want Oghre on the bench as he can cover 2 and back row. But definitely Cruse to start.

[JonnyD]

I’m inclined to think that a fit Mills starts at 12 - and if we get the added bonus of him being fit and in form he is one of the best around.
Odendaal probably then starts at 13 ahead of Spink.

Having all three of the above fit at the same time could be the challenge.

Mills pulling strings to put Odogwu at 13 through gaps would be a wonderful thing though in my humble opinion

[Heathen]

pedantic

I recognise that Shibboleth.

Shibboleth denotes plenty............

[Bloke in North Dorset]

pedantic

I recognise that Shibboleth.

Shibboleth denotes plenty............

I've always used it in this Wikipedia sense and in most dictionaries its one the first meanings given:

A shibboleth (/ˈʃɪbəlɛθ, -ɪθ/ (listen);[1][2] Biblical Hebrew: שִׁבֹּלֶת‎, romanized: šībōleṯ) is any custom or tradition, usually a choice of phrasing or even a single word, that distinguishes one group of people from another.[3][4][5] Shibboleths have been used throughout history in many societies as passwords, simple ways of self-identification, signaling loyalty and affinity, maintaining traditional segregation, or protecting from real or perceived threats.

[matelot22]

pedantic

I recognise that Shibboleth.

Shibboleth denotes plenty............

What on earth are you talking about??

[Hymenoptera]

Love the annual optimism.
In the real world, we are weaker than last season, that's surely a fact. The backs remain unchanged other than an average SA 12, who either didn't start or didn't finish for his club last season and what I saw in his appearances, left me flat as a pancake. If 12's his best position, I'd hate to see him at 13. He'll soon be coached to drop, knock on and pass behind oncoming players soon enough anyway.
Whilst Kock is a very (very) good player, he's a terrible signing and you have to ask why Sarries let him go...Sarries being the inverse to Wasps in their recruitment and coaching ability.
Let's be clear, he won't have asked for a move to Wasps. Sarries will have offered less than he wants based on shrood planning, leaving Wasps to jump on yet another poor recruitment decision, opening the cheque book to strengthen an area of relative strength.
We have opted to sign a player that this season we'll be lucky to see before 2023...just before heading into a world cup year! The guy doesn't even need a locker.
Sarries clearly saw there is little value in retaining him, leaving some other mugs to pick him up. I'd love to know the next two seasons cost per game stats.
It's fine thinking we'll have him for Europe..we're in the Challenge cup and likely will be next season..
Great players don't make great signings. We needed sparkle in the backs, not a part time big name forward.

[Neils]

So?

[Rifleman Harris]

Love the annual optimism.
In the real world, we are weaker than last season, that's surely a fact. The backs remain unchanged other than an average SA 12, who either didn't start or didn't finish for his club last season and what I saw in his appearances, left me flat as a pancake. If 12's his best position, I'd hate to see him at 13. He'll soon be coached to drop, knock on and pass behind oncoming players soon enough anyway.
Whilst Kock is a very (very) good player, he's a terrible signing and you have to ask why Sarries let him go...Sarries being the inverse to Wasps in their recruitment and coaching ability.
Let's be clear, he won't have asked for a move to Wasps. Sarries will have offered less than he wants based on shrood planning, leaving Wasps to jump on yet another poor recruitment decision, opening the cheque book to strengthen an area of relative strength.
We have opted to sign a player that this season we'll be lucky to see before 2023...just before heading into a world cup year! The guy doesn't even need a locker.
Sarries clearly saw there is little value in retaining him, leaving some other mugs to pick him up. I'd love to know the next two seasons cost per game stats.
It's fine thinking we'll have him for Europe..we're in the Challenge cup and likely will be next season..
Great players don't make great signings. We needed sparkle in the backs, not a part time big name forward.

Look on the bright side, you may not have to worry about any of that if the rumours are anything like accurate.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Love the annual optimism.
In the real world, we are weaker than last season, that's surely a fact. The backs remain unchanged other than an average SA 12, who either didn't start or didn't finish for his club last season and what I saw in his appearances, left me flat as a pancake. If 12's his best position, I'd hate to see him at 13. He'll soon be coached to drop, knock on and pass behind oncoming players soon enough anyway.
Whilst Kock is a very (very) good player, he's a terrible signing and you have to ask why Sarries let him go...Sarries being the inverse to Wasps in their recruitment and coaching ability.
Let's be clear, he won't have asked for a move to Wasps. Sarries will have offered less than he wants based on shrood planning, leaving Wasps to jump on yet another poor recruitment decision, opening the cheque book to strengthen an area of relative strength.
We have opted to sign a player that this season we'll be lucky to see before 2023...just before heading into a world cup year! The guy doesn't even need a locker.
Sarries clearly saw there is little value in retaining him, leaving some other mugs to pick him up. I'd love to know the next two seasons cost per game stats.
It's fine thinking we'll have him for Europe..we're in the Challenge cup and likely will be next season..
Great players don't make great signings. We needed sparkle in the backs, not a part time big name forward.

Woah, who got out of the grumpy side of the bed this morning? (well, me, actually    )

Rugby isn't so much about the individual players, it is about whether they can play as a team. That was our biggest 'failure' last year (I won't look at previous years). Watching all the pre-season training videos, it appears to be 99% about conditioning, so I don't see anything that might make me think the teamwork will improve. This is a team sport, not one where coaching wins games (that isn't to say that poor coaching will not lose games, because it will).

[Jac A]

Love the annual optimism.

Which is of course counter-balanced by the annual (and on-going) pessimism 

In the real world, we are weaker than last season, that's surely a fact.

Hard to disagree there but then so are quite a few clubs. Personally I don't agree with some people's view that we have a top 4 squad, I think our squad looks pretty mid-table, but there is still plenty of quality there that could have a great season.

For me one of the joys of supporting a sports team is the excitement and anticipation. I'd find it quite pointless and dull if I always expected us to be dross - I'd rather look for those shoots of optimism and hope.

The backs remain unchanged other than an average SA 12, who either didn't start or didn't finish for his club last season and what I saw in his appearances, left me flat as a pancake. If 12's his best position, I'd hate to see him at 13. He'll soon be coached to drop, knock on and pass behind oncoming players soon enough anyway.

Odendaal hasn't been brought in as a marquee name and I think the fact that the fans of each club he has left have been saddened and wanted him to stay speaks in favour of him. He looks to me to be Mitchell's defensive leader in the backs - he'll make tackles, get over the ball and hopefully keep our defence a lot tighter than it has been.

Will we miss Fekitoa in the back? He only started 7 games last season and didn't really shine so I'm happy to have Odendaal, Mills, Spink and Odogwu as centre options - plus the youngsters.

The coaches have also clearly noticed our poor ball-handling, hence why the first couple of weeks training have focused so much on passing and handling so at least they are trying to work on the issue.

Whilst Kock is a very (very) good player, he's a terrible signing and you have to ask why Sarries let him go...Sarries being the inverse to Wasps in their recruitment and coaching ability.
Let's be clear, he won't have asked for a move to Wasps. Sarries will have offered less than he wants based on shrood planning, leaving Wasps to jump on yet another poor recruitment decision, opening the cheque book to strengthen an area of relative strength.
We have opted to sign a player that this season we'll be lucky to see before 2023...just before heading into a world cup year! The guy doesn't even need a locker.
Sarries clearly saw there is little value in retaining him, leaving some other mugs to pick him up. I'd love to know the next two seasons cost per game stats.

 

I would disagree with a lot of this. Last year, Koch played for SA in the RC and Autumn Internationals and still managed to rack up almost 1400 mins in the Premiership, more than any of our Props (West was highest for us with 868 mins) and in fact more than any other Saracen front row and the forth most of any of their forwards (only Billy, Isiekwe and Earl played more mins). Blackett has been clear and I think we can generally agree that the scrum was weak last year, we won fewer penalties and gave away more than almost any other team. He has looked to strengthen an area that needed it and has secured one of the top 5 tight heads in the world. We have also got another international TH to back him up and Martinez at LH. For me, this has been good recruitment. I might be wrong, it might not work out that way but the figure suggest he should get plenty of game time.

Great players don't make great signings. We needed sparkle in the backs, not a part time big name forward.

I think we have to be pragmatic, we aren't going to see sparkle in the backs. The coaches are looking to our set-piece. We are going to kick, scrum and maul and look to have a smothering defence that goes hard at the breakdown - somewhere in between the Leicester and Sarries game plans (in my opinion). We have recruited for that.

Do I think we will win the league? Nope. Do I hope we could pull off some great wins and upsets and force ourselves into contention at the end? Yeah, we might and I will be optimistic that can get a win each weekend.

[backdoc]

We are not weaker.

The youngest players have more games under their belt. - Atkinson, Porter, Wolstenholme, Barbeary, Cardell, Spink etc

The players who are in their mid-20's should now be coming into their prime  - Willis J and T, West, Oghre, [Alo], Minozzi

There are no decaying stars in the squad that get selected regardless of form.

We have far fewer injuries than at the beginning of last season, and those that are injured are well down the road to recovery and rehab.

The recruitment around tight-head is designed to deal with the absence of Koch, and we will lose few players to Internationals.

The coaching team has no new arrivals, and the roles are more established.

We then need the intensity we showed when we won a string of games last season to be sustained.