Lee reveals 'three things' he'd love fans to say about club this season

[HDAWG]

I want to see Wasps play Wasps style rugby.  I don't want solid and dependable, I want all or nothing highlight reels!

Ever since we resumed after lockdown, this is kind of what it's been. The exciting stuff has been wipped out of us as a result of dominant forward pack and we get generic backs. Lee now sees forwards and a powerful pack as the road to success. Deeply ironic given how Quins won the prem, because prior to lockdown we looked strikingly similar....

[Chunky24]

I want to see Wasps play Wasps style rugby.  I don't want solid and dependable, I want all or nothing highlight reels!

Ever since we resumed after lockdown, this is kind of what it's been. The exciting stuff has been wipped out of us as a result of dominant forward pack and we get generic backs. Lee now sees forwards and a powerful pack as the road to success. Deeply ironic given how Quins won the prem, because prior to lockdown we looked strikingly similar....

I would say Quins key players to their success have as much been the likes of Marler / Kerrod and Collier / Louw securing the scrum, Lewies securing the line out,  and Adam Jones forward coaching which then allows the likes of Dombrant, Care, Smith and Esterhuizen front foot ball to play with, none of those would as effective with a stationary / retreating scrum or predictable / misfiring line out.

[Shugs]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

[InBetweenWasp]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

This is true, but I don't think that for one second the Quins squad got together and said "We want to be known for being able to push teams over from a scrum or a maul 5m out from the line".  In fact, it was quite the opposite mentality that led to the player revolt, Gustard departing and them insisting they play the Quins way and that was much more heads up rugby.

[Hymenoptera]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

The same front row when the team was getting battered under Gustard....hmmmm.
I'd bet the % of tries scored from a scrum or scrum pen is small in the overall % scored, most being attributed to open field play, which requires skill not brawn, so I'm not buying that.
Reads like 'if you can't coach a team to play, find the biggest strongest guys you can' to me.

[Chunky24]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

This is true, but I don't think that for one second the Quins squad got together and said "We want to be known for being able to push teams over from a scrum or a maul 5m out from the line".  In fact, it was quite the opposite mentality that led to the player revolt, Gustard departing and them insisting they play the Quins way and that was much more heads up rugby.

And if they had tried it without that platform it wouldn't have had the outcome it did as they would have been constantly penalised at set piece and not had front foot ball. . Wales 2005 grand slam was won by them deciding a similar thing, guess who the rock it was built on was, Adam Jones.

I think the thing about this whole discussion is presumably pushing teams over from 5 metres is a small sound bite in a 3 things interview and isn't the only plan. Skillful, set piece and gritty is probably where most teams start as 3 basics.

[Shugs]

Take your point Inbetween. I suppose the inevitable truth is that everyone has to play their part. In terms of our back play I have a hunch we’ll be pleasantly surprised by the Odendaal/Spink combination at centre which would represent a huge shift from last year.

[Chunky24]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

The same front row when the team was getting battered under Gustard....hmmmm.
I'd bet the % of tries scored from a scrum or scrum pen is small in the overall % scored, most being attributed to open field play, which requires skill not brawn, so I'm not buying that.
Reads like 'if you can't coach a team to play, find the biggest strongest guys you can' to me.

First 3 tries in Quins final win - penalty try from a 5m line out rolling maul, Wilco Louw  2m trundle started with a 5 metre scrum, Dombrandt great line off Smith started with a 5m scrum.

[InBetweenWasp]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

The same front row when the team was getting battered under Gustard....hmmmm.
I'd bet the % of tries scored from a scrum or scrum pen is small in the overall % scored, most being attributed to open field play, which requires skill not brawn, so I'm not buying that.
Reads like 'if you can't coach a team to play, find the biggest strongest guys you can' to me.

First 3 tries in Quins final win - penalty try from a 5m line out rolling maul, Wilco Louw  2m trundle started with a 5 metre scrum, Dombrandt great line off Smith started with a 5m scrum.

Doesn't this support the opposite of what you've suggested? - In a Final, games renowned for being tight cagey affairs, Quins scored 4 out of their 6 tries from decent strike or backs play (Dombradt gets included in that - It wasn't a dull pick and go).

I'd happily see us score a third of our tries from a prop crashing over from 2m out, or from a rolling maul close to the line but when it becomes just about every try we score being like that (like last season) it gets pretty dull, pretty quickly.

The way Quins seek to play is very similar to our DNA that we need to rejuvinate.

[mike909]

I think given the Laws as interpreted and a critical look at areas which mattered, I've little against having a more than competent front 5 that can make sure we're gaining parity from the set pieces such that, the backrow and others have something to play off. We struggled too often for the obvious reasons behind the pack. Even in our best times - we often looked to a pacy back three as the priority off a team providing quick ball and not being beaten up.

I know it's a while back, but looking at the 2007 Heineken, that wasn't a front 5 you'd piss about with as the opposition pack...even Tigers...and so I like a worry taken out of the gameplan.

I'd hope that we're able to play with continuity and flair in the backs. That's too often been missing since our most recent Prem final - when I had a fun look at the 60 we put on the EA's. That coach is now with England - wasted there!

[Chunky24]

Exactly Chunky. Quins win nothing if they don’t have Collier, Marler, Louw or Herrod.

The same front row when the team was getting battered under Gustard....hmmmm.
I'd bet the % of tries scored from a scrum or scrum pen is small in the overall % scored, most being attributed to open field play, which requires skill not brawn, so I'm not buying that.
Reads like 'if you can't coach a team to play, find the biggest strongest guys you can' to me.

First 3 tries in Quins final win - penalty try from a 5m line out rolling maul, Wilco Louw  2m trundle started with a 5 metre scrum, Dombrandt great line off Smith started with a 5m scrum.

Doesn't this support the opposite of what you've suggested? - In a Final, games renowned for being tight cagey affairs, Quins scored 4 out of their 6 tries from decent strike or backs play (Dombradt gets included in that - It wasn't a dull pick and go).

I'd happily see us score a third of our tries from a prop crashing over from 2m out, or from a rolling maul close to the line but when it becomes just about every try we score being like that (like last season) it gets pretty dull, pretty quickly.

The way Quins seek to play is very similar to our DNA that we need to rejuvinate.

2 of the tries were in the last 10 minutes when they had to throw it around to get back in the game but don't think it's a coincidence their first tries were based around set piece then as the game goes on they can then open up. Also those back plays started with a set piece which if lost or penalised doesn't allow the resulting plays too happen.
In conclusion I think what we are both saying is it is a team game in which everyone has to deliver to have an all round threat and that if you are an ex prop like me your bias might be towards forwards importance!

[wasps]

I'm hoping Lee was going for a bit of misdirection.
Get everyone talking about our dominant forward play, multi phase rucks and driving mauls.... Then devastate them with 1st phase strike attacks.




Lee was a backs and skills coach. He feels that with a platform, he knows how to make backs play well and his to set up exciting, attacking rugby.
Lee isn't and never has been a forwards or scrum coach. He can't personally improve that area of our game. He's therefore got forwards coaches to help, but is throwing money at solving that problem too.




It's always said that fly halfs look better on the front foot.
This year, our 10s shouldn't have many excuses there.




This feels like a make or break for Lee as a head coach.
We struggled badly last year. Lee has now had a whole summer to address that, with new players and hopefully new moves.
If it doesn't come together better this season then you start to think (I know some have already) that he can't fix it

[westwaleswasp]

I think those are three very depressing things to hear from the Head Coach of a team that has been known for flair, and champagne rugby for years.

I don't want a set piece that wins penalties, I want a scrum that doesn't go backwards against the head, and gets the ball out as fast as possible with the head.  I want a lineout that gets the ball into play as quickly as possible, and steals it more often than the opposition want to admit. And I don't want a squad considered skillful.  Surely that should be the baseline?  I want a decently skillful squad with a few bloody magicians scattered through it.  Wade running at defenders, Piutau carving a hole where no-one else saw one, Beale flicking an offload no-one else even saw, Jackson chipping over Toulon's defence at full sprint.  I want to see a massive hulk of a backrow kicking out of hand as he races down the line (Thanks Ash), I want to see a loose head charge down a centre, I want to see a tighthead pull of a dummy pass and go on to score.

I want to see Wasps play Wasps style rugby.  I don't want solid and dependable, I want all or nothing highlight reels!

I am done with Lee if this is what he wants.  I dearly hope this is pre season bullshit and misdirection.
I agree with your sentiment, and sadly will take it much  further. I want Lee to go if this is his attitude.  I will not support his tenure on the job if this is what he thinks we should be proud of. He can, frankly, f*** off Ian go now if he wants us to be a pound shop Chiefs or Tigers. I hope that all he means is he wants a solid set piece, not that the game will be all about it.
 I won't pay to come and watch us play with the ambition of phase after phase on the 5m line or set piece dominance. Period. Play rugby. Wasps is about playing, aggressive defence and lethality off turnovers. Not set piece dominance grinding the wins out, which is something you applaud when playing badly and riddled with injury. It is not a game plan. We need bums on seats. They won't come to watch 6 or 7 home wins ground out like Chiefs. I would rather win fewer games and play, remembering the points difference won't be significant if we pick up bonus points. Others will feel differently and that is fine. But for me style matters over wins. Wasps style.
I am very worried.

[Chunky24]

I'm not sure how a 3 things article has turned in to Lee only wants to score tries from scrum penalties and 5m out?

As I said previously most teams would list skilful, set piece and gritty as 3 of their basics, Lee even put skillful first.

Everyone would rather watch tries run in from everywhere, however teams have to have that forward game to turn to. There are many occasions on here when we have talked about failure to convert 5 m opportunities (prem final lineout?) costing us games, to have that power game in the locker when needed with an effective turnover game and skillful attacking would be what any coach is looking for. I do agree that Lee has no excuses this season, this is now fully his squad .

[wasps]

I would absolutely be over the moon to see us grind out 5 minutes at the end of games with a dominant forward pack to close out a win.


Far too often we've put ourselves in winning positions only to lose it at the death because we can't keep the ball tight.
If that is solved by a big, solid, forward pack I'll take it every day