Wasps v Bristol: Post Match Thoughts.

[Westy68]

Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.

We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference

[HDAWG]

It's been 2 years, and on top of last week I expected a reaction. These results are unacceptable for me. It's just not on.

[Rossm]

Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.

We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference

I know I get flak for saying, if we do the basics properly, then the rest will follow.  However, Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?

[Chunky24]

They used Alfies desire to win big contacts against him yesterday, they absorbed the contact, kept him up and stripped him as he focused on driving on for a couple more yards.
The best forwards first receiver I saw was George Smith, always seemed to beat the first defender through speed of thought and movement despite not being the biggest.

[Mellie]

Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?

Even more inexcusable is Alfie not putting Porter in from a 2 on 1 early on. He needs to be aware of what's on instead of driving forward for as long as possible. Only positive from that butchered chance was we kept the ball and the move eventually lead to a try by Cruse.

[Shugs]

Reference to George Smith makes me think Nemo. Even in a cameo yesterday he picked 2-3 lines we just hadn’t been running. I don’t want to turn anything into a bash Barbeary fest - he’s a fantastic, exciting player. I just think we need to use him more subtly.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Spot on shugs it’s not the last 2 games it’s the last 2 years, which is why I don’t understand the ‘patience’ comment.

We were really bad yesterday, you can’t say any difference

I know I get flak for saying, if we do the basics properly, then the rest will follow.  However, Alfie's first 2 carries yesterday resulted in tackles which made him drop the ball forward. Later, he got stripped by Randall. None of that should happen. Alfie is surely big and strong enough to keep the ball with one arm and pick up Randall with his other hand and toss him aside. What is he doing wrong and is it simply to do with the coaching or is it something more fundamental, as I am beginning to suspect. Now I have no respect for Jones whatsoever but he has still not yet capped him even off the bench. Is it just possible that EJ has noticed something that everyone else has missed?

I’ve been wondering about that for a while and have a few thoughts.

Alfie was an early developer and has come through the age groups being the biggest player on the park, usually by a long way.  He may have played in older teams but I suspect usually within his abilities.

As such he’s been able to use sheer power to burst through defences and never needed to worry about developing a side step or his passing skills, let alone hanging on to the ball. I’m sure coaches worked on it but we wasn’t under pressure to use them in games.

Also oppositions won’t have seen him or even if they did they probably didn’t have the time to coach their own defences. 

Now he’s been in the Premiership he’s facing far better coached defences as well as players more his size and he doesn’t quite have the instincts to keep tight hold of the ball, sidestep or pass when under severe pressure or when outside opportunities occur. 

Tom, on the other hand, had to develop those skills and instincts as he progressed which is why he doesn’t drop the ball while fending off one player and being tackled by another. 

Could Alfie become a world class 8? I don’t know, but do we want him learning on the job when we’ve go another potential world class 8 much further up the learning curve?

My big worry is that while Alfie is learning on the job Tom gets frustrated and decides to move on.  He could walk in to any team in the Prem, maybe as a close no 2 to someone like Dombrandt, but Alfie couldn’t. 

[WonkyWasp]

Agree one hundred per cent with your last 2 paragraphs BiND.

[Westy68]

For me Alfie needs to realise he is part of a team and he needs to stop thinking he has to do everything himself. He must learn to side step, must learn to pas the ball.

Also Lee needs to get the players getting to the breakdown a lot quicker, I’ve seen some very lazy running and the urgency is sometimes not there, that I find difficult to except, which is why a have a problem with lee because that is all down to coaching the basics to a level players are not allowed to go below.

I still rate Alfie a lot and would happily play him, the problem is Tom is currently the better 8

[WonkyWasp]

Sorry Westy, but I don't think Tom is the problem at 8.  It's definitely Alfie who's  problem!!(well, at  8 anyway)

[mike909]

Seen the game now - not the greatest start to my holidays....Not much to add to the comments but it didn't seem that Briz had to play that well to win fairly comfortably. In part due to our inabilities around the basics of ball retention and using support. We do seem to be trying too hard and for me, this is a coaching issue. Or at least a coaching approach issue.

Alfie is a problem. I did think that it was a good problem to have but now I'm less sure. His skillset isn't that of an 8. Tom was and is an excellent 8 who will likely improve and Nemo is a better 8 as well. Perhaps time to have a think about what we are asking him to do. At present, we risk losing Tom W if we don't make best use of his talents. We have to agree what we want Alfie to do....

I did think we'd see a reaction and whilst not keen on panic, I'm seriously worried that we could end up "leaving points out on the pitch" when that's the sort of excuse that too often suggests a team that perhaps isn't 100% invested in the game plan they are being asked to play. It might "only" be a confidence thing, but that needs to change quickly before we end up in a downward spiral.

We really need to beat Bath next week. The series of Prem games after that are likely v challenging. including Tigers and Exeter away....and on current form, Saints will fancy their chances at Coventry.

[Westy68]

Sorry Westy, but I don't think Tom is the problem at 8.  It's definitely Alfie who's  problem!!(well, at  8 anyway)

That’s what I meant, Tom is the best 8

[WonkyWasp]

Sorry Westy .....  glad we agree.  Will clean my glasses more often.