LBND in the Times this morning

[InBetweenWasp]

Is this definitely an update since Wasps’ statement, or is this simply a delayed update to Bond Investors via HL relaying the same news Wasps put out in their Statement?

[Shugs]

Yes, sounds like the old statement to me.

[InBetweenWasp]

Can’t see a ten teamer working myself. Most teams wouldn’t be able to survive on 9 home games a season even with a lower cap.

Would love to hear some stats behind costs to put on a game vs revenues.

It’s only 3 fewer league games than we currently have and 2 fewer than a traditional 12 team league.

It would mean a 25% reduction in operating costs due to a 25% reduction in home matches and I reckon we’d be able to recoup the ‘lost’ 20k or so attendees from the 3 games by appealing to more casual fans coming to see matches with full strength teams.

Prem Cup games become more competitive as well and would still get played at home with arguably bigger attendances.

Reckon the economics might not be as bad as you think, but no data to back it up.  Just gut feel.

[wasps]

I'm genuinely intrigued.
Do you see the 2 10 team leagues as being on a par with each other?


Surely if one has the best 10 teams and the other has the next best 10 teams, then isn't it still premiership and championship but with a more concentrated structure?


And therefore if one league is deemed the better of the 2, it'll get the better sponsorship, TV deals etc.




I really do think that a 10 team league improves in some important areas.
A strong domestic cup competition can likely be marketed too




Another question though...
How do you see the next generation of players being developed?
There's no A league, less games per season so less chance for younger squad players to be eased in, and a (hopefully) competitive cup competition stops it being used for development.

[westwaleswasp]

If we have a ten team league there will be no more access to England players- this deal of reduced matches for better access to players simply is not on the table.
The genie is out and that is that. If you nip out a couple of teams they will just put on more training camps and get togethers  or even more fixtures.

[InBetweenWasp]

I'm genuinely intrigued.  Do you see the 2 10 team leagues as being on a par with each other?

Surely if one has the best 10 teams and the other has the next best 10 teams, then isn't it still premiership and championship but with a more concentrated structure?

And therefore if one league is deemed the better of the 2, it'll get the better sponsorship, TV deals etc.

I really do think that a 10 team league improves in some important areas.
A strong domestic cup competition can likely be marketed too

So it’s basically a restructure of the Prem + Champ with 2 up, 2 down promotion and relegation and with a view to always having the best players available to encourage casual fans to attend knowing they’ll see the star players.

9 weekends of Prem Cup action (during intls), perhaps with a limit of 3 ‘regular’ squad members and the rest U23/less than 25 first team games in the leagues.

Another question though...
How do you see the next generation of players being developed?
There's no A league, less games per season so less chance for younger squad players to be eased in, and a (hopefully) competitive cup competition stops it being used for development.

via a competitive Prem Cup type competition or league played during internationals.  So the Clubs can host events, but manage a minimal crowd or go big/cheap on tickets.  Up to them.

The other impact of a reduced cap and fewer games is likely less higher cost players and more young talent played organically.  Keep academies going and an U18 competition etc…

[Sliminator]

This is definitely the sort of thing I was imagining. With the TV coverage / wage cap etc roughly similar between the 2 leagues.

I've always thought that the restriction on 1st team players in the prem cup should be based on premiership minutes played in the last calendar year or something to allow players coming back from injury game time along with wider squad members.

[DGP Wasp]

FWIW, I'd go with:

16 team Premiership split into 2 leagues of 8 with promotion and relegation 2 up, 2 down via playoffs (playoffs not universally popular I know, but commercially necessary in reality).  To get an idea of how this might look, based on last year's final tables, Premiership 2 would still include Wasps, Bristol, Newcastle, Worcester and Bath, plus  Ealing, Doncaster and Cornish Pirates from the current Championship to make things a bit more interesting, so still plenty of eye-catching fixtures there.

European competitions to revert to pools of 4, giving all another guaranteed 3 home games.

New English national knockout cup involving all 4 tiers of the National Leagues (currently 81 teams, rising to 82 next season if all goes to plan), preliminary round between Nat 2 teams to take it to 64 ahead of straight knockout from round 1 involving Prem, Champ and Nat 1, with early rounds played during international breaks and Prem teams fielding development sides similar to current Prem Cup, but later rounds (Q Final onwards?) to be scheduled to allow top teams to field a full strength team and hopefully generate more interest (and £££) from sponsors/TV/spectators giving a financial boost to clubs lower down the ladder as well.

That's a guaranteed 10 home games a season, plus likely some knockout rugby here and there.

If it helped raise interest across all clubs then I wouldn't be averse to having centrally contracted England players spread more equitably around all the 16 Prem teams via some sort of US style draft (not sure exactly how these things work as I'm not really a follower of US sports, but I know some on here will have a good grasp of it).  I know this is sacrilege to some, but it would take some of the financial burden off of the clubs, should mean that all clubs have at least 1 or 2  England players to draw in the crowds and would put a stop to certain clubs hoovering up all the emerging talent from other clubs whose owners don't have such deep pockets.

Something radical is needed as it is increasingly clear that the current model just ain't working.

[hookender]

FWIW, I'd go with:

16 team Premiership split into 2 leagues of 8 with promotion and relegation 2 up, 2 down via playoffs (playoffs not universally popular I know, but commercially necessary in reality).  To get an idea of how this might look, based on last year's final tables, Premiership 2 would still include Wasps, Bristol, Newcastle, Worcester and Bath, plus  Ealing, Doncaster and Cornish Pirates from the current Championship to make things a bit more interesting, so still plenty of eye-catching fixtures there.

European competitions to revert to pools of 4, giving all another guaranteed 3 home games.

New English national knockout cup involving all 4 tiers of the National Leagues (currently 81 teams, rising to 82 next season if all goes to plan), preliminary round between Nat 2 teams to take it to 64 ahead of straight knockout from round 1 involving Prem, Champ and Nat 1, with early rounds played during international breaks and Prem teams fielding development sides similar to current Prem Cup, but later rounds (Q Final onwards?) to be scheduled to allow top teams to field a full strength team and hopefully generate more interest (and £££) from sponsors/TV/spectators giving a financial boost to clubs lower down the ladder as well.

That's a guaranteed 10 home games a season, plus likely some knockout rugby here and there.

If you were to have playoffs, I would make it one team go up/ down between the two divisions.

Keep the final day at twickenham,but make it a double header , including the div2 final. Would guarantee a full house plus bonus of seeing 2 other teams you probably won’t have seen live in your own season of games.

Plus still look at relegation /promotion from National league.

[Lwasp]

If you were to have playoffs, I would make it one team go up/ down between the two divisions.

Keep the final day at twickenham,but make it a double header , including the div2 final. Would guarantee a full house plus bonus of seeing 2 other teams you probably won’t have seen live in your own season of games.

Plus still look at relegation /promotion from National league.

If everyone attending was a grown-up and a fan of rugby rather than their team that would be great. But the London DH showed what is more likely to happen, the fans of the 1st match teams have limited interest in the 2nd, get battered and throw stuff around ruining the enjoyment of those there to see the 2nd match.

It wasn't a one off, it was every year and ruined the DH for me a STH when it was designated our home fixture (which it almost always was since Quins refused to have it as one of theirs).

[hookender]

If you were to have playoffs, I would make it one team go up/ down between the two divisions.

Keep the final day at twickenham,but make it a double header , including the div2 final. Would guarantee a full house plus bonus of seeing 2 other teams you probably won’t have seen live in your own season of games.

Plus still look at relegation /promotion from National league.

If everyone attending was a grown-up and a fan of rugby rather than their team that would be great. But the London DH showed what is more likely to happen, the fans of the 1st match teams have limited interest in the 2nd, get battered and through stuff around ruining the enjoyment of those there to see the 2nd match.

It wasn't a one off, it was every year and ruined the DH for me a STH when it was designated our home fixture (which it almost always was since Quins refused to have it as one of theirs).

Yes I know what you mean about the LDH ,but a lot of tickets were sold very cheaply,given away to fill stadium which didn’t help.lots of different fans go to prem final to actually watch it.

 Alternative would be to maybe hire a different stadium for div 2 final outside London , maybe midlands to help/promote rugby

[InBetweenWasp]

Seems like a few of us are on the same page:

- Create 2 smaller but more viable/competitive league that combined have a greater number of teams than the current 13 Team PRL and offer room for growth as more teams from the (current) Championship are in a position to be competitive/go fully professional
- Reduce the financial burden on Clubs by hosting fewer (but more marketable) home games to try and increase crowds to capacity
- Find a way to further reduce the Salary Cap be it via a reduced cap or centralised EPS contracts (and not having internationals absent will likely help reduce squad sizes)
- Disperse the ‘star’ players (EPS or non-EPS) amongst a greater number of teams
- Ensure players are available for selection (assuming fit) for every league game
- Use a revised Prem Cup as the junior competition with meaningful games

[Shugs]

Laudable sentiments but I can’t see how it would work. The second division would be totally one sided. You give teams free time with less games and they won’t rest players - they’ll want a way of earning cash. Less games just won’t do that. Also, you’d probably bankrupt the bigger teams in the second tier. Players being dispersed can’t work as they are all going to want the best deals with the best clubs.
I think the only solution is to make it a 14 team league by adding Ealing. Find a way to get the best players on show (less pointless internationals/get togethers/ training camps etc). Ditch the prem cup. Go with the league and Europe. Reintroduce promotion & relegation.

[DGP Wasp]

Laudable sentiments but I can’t see how it would work. The second division would be totally one sided. You give teams free time with less games and they won’t rest players - they’ll want a way of earning cash. Less games just won’t do that. Also, you’d probably bankrupt the bigger teams in the second tier. Players being dispersed can’t work as they are all going to want the best deals with the best clubs.
I think the only solution is to make it a 14 team league by adding Ealing. Find a way to get the best players on show (less pointless internationals/get togethers/ training camps etc). Ditch the prem cup. Go with the league and Europe. Reintroduce promotion & relegation.

Second division would need to be "levelled up" (sorry!) by more even distribution of centrally contracted England internationals, so in this utopian scenario, shouldn't be too one sided, and would be a better vehicle to allow teams to step up from the Championship (I wouldn't want a closed shop).
Fewer games and clubs won't have to rest players, so not sure I get your point there.  As it is, most clubs only rest players when compelled to do so by England, so 26 league games a season doesn't strike me as a way to fix that.  Wage paying clubs will want their pound of flesh.  Few have the luxury of sufficient squad depth to allow for planned rotation.
England players being dispersed can work if they are all centrally contracted and the RFU (who have the finances if they can only manage them better) foots the bill with clubs just having to top up.
14 team league means 26 matches in the season and inevitably more weeks when internationals will be unavailable.
Fewer "pointless" internationals just ain't going to happen.  I wouldn't want to see more internationals, but to wish for fewer is unrealistic.

[InBetweenWasp]

Laudable sentiments but I can’t see how it would work. The second division would be totally one sided. You give teams free time with less games and they won’t rest players - they’ll want a way of earning cash. Less games just won’t do that. Also, you’d probably bankrupt the bigger teams in the second tier. Players being dispersed can’t work as they are all going to want the best deals with the best clubs.
I think the only solution is to make it a 14 team league by adding Ealing. Find a way to get the best players on show (less pointless internationals/get togethers/ training camps etc). Ditch the prem cup. Go with the league and Europe. Reintroduce promotion & relegation.

During ‘fallow’ league weeks (during AIs and the 6N) all clubs across both leagues would have Domestic Cup matches, so not rested per se.

It feels like 14 Teams = More matches which = more underlying operating costs to the Club = Larger Squads required = Fewer star players on show = less of an attraction to the ‘casual’ rugby fan who could be persuaded to come along.  The reality is that an extra game is highly unlikely to generate significantly enough revenue (yet) to give an upside to the extra opex to put on the game.

It’s kind of whats been done (Get more games in, buy bigger players for better pulling power, have bigger squads/higher salary caps) and not worked, so think something different is required.

Appreciate that it’s unlikely to be enough to change your view Shugs especially as there isn’t any meaningful data behind it, but surprised to read your suggestion to the solution to some of PRLs issues is to throw another team in, give Clubs another home game and reduce England Squad time together.