Cheat To Survive

[WonkyWasp]

Surely not to the same level?  Or quantity?

[The Falcon]

Surely not to the same level?  Or quantity?

Well how much has Derek put in to our club over his time as owner? Not to say I'm not grateful, but we can't go pointing the finger at other clubs for having a wealthy benefactor when our own secured us pseudo-ownership of a ready built facility and has plugged all the losses since.

[WonkyWasp]

I can't imagine that any other club has 'invested' as much or with such imagination or indeed enthusiasm as  -  well,  use your own imagination.

[Rugbyintheblood]

I realise this thread is highlighting Sarries approach primarily but couldn’t help feeling weird when I read Bobby Bridge’s recent tweets rejoicing Tigers recent re signing achievements.

The tweet goes on to applaud the signing and re signing these decent/international players:
Freddie Steward, Ollie Chessum, Jack van Poortvliet, George Martin, Nic Dolly, Harry Wells, Guy Porter, Joe Heyes, Chris Ashton, Richard W'worth, Murimurivalu, Julian Montoya, Matt Scott, Hanro Liebenberg, Sean Jansen, Harry Potter, Calum Green, James Whitcombe, Will Hurd & Harry Simmons, Pollard, Watson, Gopperth, Cronin, Cracknell, Cokanasiga.
I’m sure this list is not complete so how they can do all that under the salary cap is impressive 😗😏😟

Any thoughts?

[westwaleswasp]

Our back row is Willis, Willis, Shields, Alfie, Nemo etc.
You could easily point fingers at us given just that bit of info, I think context is important. I don't worry too much at Tigers' squad, I am suspicious of Sarries still.

[backdoc]

As the salary cap drives wages down, playing for England compensates at well over £20k a game.

Tigers is a good shop window for that in a way that Newcastle, Worcs etc are not - no cup final, no large European games.

The thing about Saracens is how long they have been doing it. Players like A Farrell, A Sanderson were paid very large signing on fees by Wray's property companies, and I am sure of you had the data this would go back to Tim Horan, Lynagh, Castagnaide. The more recent technique of 'co-ownership' effectively binds players like George, Itoje etc to the club.

When McCall hot airs about 'it is worrying' that a player like Nowell signs for a French club, he knows very well that the top players are bound to Saracens. He is complicit in the scam.

[InBetweenWasp]

I'm sure I'm not the only one here that reads "diversification of revenue streams" as, "hiding the money and cooking the books".

You might not be the only one, but personally think it’s wide of the mark. 

It’s a reflection that, as Derek and Co have sought to do, Rugby Clubs need multiple sources of revenue beyond the traditional sponsorship and match day revenues.

Hence renting the pitch out to schools, using meeting space around the Club etc…

[Shugs]

I guess the point is that no-one trusts Sarries because they were caught cheating on a still unknown scale. The legacy of that for them is that no-one will trust them or what they do for a very long time even if it’s perfectly valid. I suspect they don’t care either way anyway.

[Neils]

I guess the point is that no-one trusts Sarries because they were caught cheating on a still unknown scale. The legacy of that for them is that no-one will trust them or what they do for a very long time even if it’s perfectly valid. I suspect they don’t care either way anyway.

Remember they were "caught" twice.

[Lwasp]

Well how much has Derek put in to our club over his time as owner? Not to say I'm not grateful, but we can't go pointing the finger at other clubs for having a wealthy benefactor when our own secured us pseudo-ownership of a ready built facility and has plugged all the losses since.

That's the point though. When our "unsustainable" debt is bandied about it includes the money owed to DR, at least £20m, hence our total debt is at least £65m (£35m bond, £20m DR, £10m odd HMRC & Covid). As it stands DR isn't just throwing money in to the pot, he's lending/investing it with an expectation of getting it back.

In the case of Sarries when Remgro sold up they wrote off £25m of debt, so that money was spent and never has to be paid back. How does any club compete with that sort of business model without having a rich fool of their own?

https://www.news24.com/Sport/ruperts-remgro-to-sell-shares-in-english-club-20180403

I see Gloucester have issued a press release stating they made an actual profit of £1m last season. Be interesting to see if that was an net profit or an EBITDA profit that becomes a huge loss after debt interest is taken off. Or do they not have any?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63061341

The business of our sport has always interested me, now more than ever.

[Peej]

I realise this thread is highlighting Sarries approach primarily but couldn’t help feeling weird when I read Bobby Bridge’s recent tweets rejoicing Tigers recent re signing achievements.

The tweet goes on to applaud the signing and re signing these decent/international players:
Freddie Steward, Ollie Chessum, Jack van Poortvliet, George Martin, Nic Dolly, Harry Wells, Guy Porter, Joe Heyes, Chris Ashton, Richard W'worth, Murimurivalu, Julian Montoya, Matt Scott, Hanro Liebenberg, Sean Jansen, Harry Potter, Calum Green, James Whitcombe, Will Hurd & Harry Simmons, Pollard, Watson, Gopperth, Cronin, Cracknell, Cokanasiga.
I’m sure this list is not complete so how they can do all that under the salary cap is impressive 😗😏😟

Any thoughts?

Of those the only players likely to be on huge money are Pollard, who directly replaced Ford, and probably now Steward who will have had a huge uplift from his first contract. All the others were either picked up as virtual unknowns, as older players on diminishing contracts, or have come through the Academy.

Not to say they won't have difficulty holding on to them when it comes time for smaller contracts to be turned into larger ones, but those players hardly scream Galaticos, it's far more Moneyball.

[matelot22]

I'm sure I'm not the only one here that reads "diversification of revenue streams" as, "hiding the money and cooking the books".

You might not be the only one, but personally think it’s wide of the mark. 

It’s a reflection that, as Derek and Co have sought to do, Rugby Clubs need multiple sources of revenue beyond the traditional sponsorship and match day revenues.

Hence renting the pitch out to schools, using meeting space around the Club etc…

Sorry, I know we are diversifying revenue streams, and are doing it openly. My comment was aimed at the history of Sarrie's antics and my inability to trust them in anything they do. See Shugs' comment immediately after yours. They will forever be tarnished in my eyes as long as any of those involved in the systematic cheating remain tied to the club.

[Peej]

I'd think given we're likely to be relegated at the end of the season there are bigger things to be worried about then this weird obsession with criticising Sarries at every opportunity. 

[Lwasp]

I see Gloucester have issued a press release stating they made an actual profit of £1m last season. Be interesting to see if that was an net profit or an EBITDA profit that becomes a huge loss after debt interest is taken off. Or do they not have any?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63061341

OK, so Gloucester didn't mention the £1m, the BBC pulled it out of the accounts. So I looked at them to see how they managed it. That profit is only generated after Gloucester increased the value of their P Shares by £3.7m. I wonder if every club has to value 1 P Share at the same level in their accounts or do they all get to set their own independent valuation? Will they have to take a significant hit to the value this year due to the current events' impact on the value of the Premiership as a product?

The accounts further show that Gloucester generated a cash loss from operating activities of £5m, paid for via the £11m loan taken from DCMS. So net cash in the bank increased by £5.6m. That £11m has to be repaid over a number of years.

These figures do not present a picture of nothing to worry about. Granted they aren't carrying the debt we are, but it isn't all roses either. Gloucester have made a multi-million pound operating loss every year for the last 4, back to 2018. The last year of reported profit (2019) was engineered by an upwards revaluation in P Shares.

I don't think anyone would argue the Premiership is currently worth what it was pre-Covid. There could be more financial pain for Prem clubs yet.

[matelot22]

I'd think given we're likely to be relegated at the end of the season there are bigger things to be worried about then this weird obsession with criticising Sarries at every opportunity.

Since the thread is specifically about Sarries, I expect most comments will be about Sarries.....