Match Thread

[Neils]

I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

On the other hand, thought he was extremely critical of the Tigers starting 10.

With justification, his kicking out of had was woeful as was his decision making.

[JonnyD]

I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.

Definitely seems this is starting to creep in, wonder why we still persist with the pick and go to get held up.
Teams need to adapt as knocking on the door for 20 phases for a drop out to then take you back to half way is a real momentum killer

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I have noted on other threads that it is beginning to really annoy me that some teams are using the ball held up decision to haul a player over their line to break up attacks. Obviously legal but certain teams seem to be using it as a tactic time and again.

It was a tactic I suggested when they announced this law change. Amazed more teams do not do it.

[Mellie]

What annoys me is when teams (not just Wasps) try to batter their way over the line from 5m by passing to a single one out carrier with maybe someone bound on. Again and again for endless phases.

I'd like to see some variation on different phases. For instance, why not use the one out carrier as a decoy or to offload to someone coming round the corner to stretch the defence more. When the point of attack is obvious the defence just need to flood the guard position. Having a wave of attackers, where any one of them can exploit a weak shoulder to break through or draw the cover to create space outside would be preferable.

In Wasps' case, I've noticed a tendency to get held up or to drop the ball when trying to batter the line. Or they lose composure and throw it out wide in desperation and without having created the space and lose the ball.

[InBetweenWasp]

What annoys me is when teams (not just Wasps) try to batter their way over the line from 5m by passing to a single one out carrier with maybe someone bound on. Again and again for endless phases.

I suspect this is entirely driven by the coaches to keep it as low-risk as possible.  Mark Atkinson spoke about some of this sort of stuff (not necessarily one-out passes from 5m out) on Eggchasers saying something similar.  For context, they were discussing most teams being comfortable with aggressive defensive lines and how they're pretty predictable - same with box kick set-ups - and why don't more teams do something different (in defence) to change the picture and take the predictability out of it to worry the attacking team.

Mark said he saw huge upside in doing different things; but ultimately who wants to be the guy in the Monday morning meeting having to explain why they've let someone through by coming out of the defensive line.

There were a number of times last night when we could have gone wide with both Hartley and Dawkins looking a real handful to bring down and also Feyi-Waboso's twinkling feet.  That being said, Feyi-Waboso looked good going forward but needs to work on his rugby intellect a bit more - got pinged for being offside after a kick and Healey had pointed out several other examples beforehand of him getting away with the same.

[Jac A]

Just a point on Feyi-Waboso's offside. It looks really strange and the second time he ballsed up by moving forward but this is a tactic that started creeping in last year and I think we may see more of. The law is that if the player receiving the kick runs 5m then all players are onside so you can stand miles in front of your kicker and as long as you don't advance you can play after the receiver travels 5m. He actually did it perfectly the first time and Woodthorpe commented on how the second time was a penalty because he advanced.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Don’t think we need to get downhearted by this. We’re talking about quite a few players who have had no recent rugby at all. I think as much as anything else the laws need drumming into the likes of Dodson and Feyi-Waboso. The two main worries I had coming out of it were Simonds needs to show something soon. For me he’s already behind Odendaal, Mills and Hartley and he’s been around for a while. Locks - I know we have Stooke to come back and I’m happy with Launch, McDonald and Cardall but over a season that’s not much depth and Dodson and Vukasinovic look a good way off Prem standard at the minute.

What worries me is that just like Tigers they played the way the 1st XV do. They have adopted the Wasps DNA and that is moments of flair in a sea of mediocrity. It's fragility and seemingly a lack of fitness.

What worries me is that whoever pulls the shirt on plays exactly the same.

[wasps]

Is it something that improves when Mitchell returns?

Or does his return strengthen the defence and mindset, but also limit our attacking gameplay?

[Shugs]

I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.

[wasps]

I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.

I think I agree.


The whole thing with how it came about, swapping roles mid season etc. just feels... Weird


However, I do live in hope.
If we had Shaun Edwards on the staff, we'd be saying how the players wouldn't want to be in front of him after a match.
It feels that Mitchell carries a bit of that about him, so maybe it can help drive us...


What's worse though is that if that is what's missing, why do we let him go, and why can't anyone else play the bad guy?

[Beasties]

That was surprisingly disappointing. I agree with a lot of what's been said here.

In terms of players the generally positive for me were:
Fisilau - as others said, agree with Healy: great engine and work-rate, looks to have a good rugby brain too, ran some good lines. Just out muscled a bit. A year with S&C and the dietician putting on 4-5kgs while keeping the energy round the park could see him become very effective considering he's only 19.

McArthur - the scrum wasn't as dominant in the second half when Martinez went off, but it didn't go backwards despite Tigers bringing on the very experienced Leatigaga. Round the park he looked full of energy, quick, hit hard. He reminds me a bit of Matt Mullan. More scrum experience and I think he could be a player. Should have had a try too.

Hartley - best of our youngsters. Looks to have a high rugby IQ - made some very good decisions, big boot, strong. Definitely a 12 for me though. I wouldn't have him ahead of Burger or Mills yet, he missed a lot of rugby last year so some more games for Ampthill and PRC but he's the next cab if one of them is unavailable IMO.

Craven - I liked Monye but Craven is a step up as an academy 9. Everything apart from the box kicking was strong. Quick to the ruck, accurate passes, good support lines. Could have taken charge a bit more when we were camped on their line.

Haydon-Wood - Mostly played well. Good in the air, passing, decision making for the most part etc. Wasn't too impressed by his kicking out of hand though. quite a few of his kicks would have been punished far more if Jed Walsh wasn't wearing clown shoes - won't get those chances against the likes of Biggar, Farrel, Ford etc - so would have liked to see more of his running game.

Dawkins - Fumbled a pass early but took his try really well. Reminded me a bit of Caden Murley.

Disspointments:
Curran - I've been a big fan of Keiran's and have been hoping this will be his breakthrough year but in all honesty, he was outplayed by his opposite number in every respect. Two scrums he was very slow to get away from and as a 7 that's not great as you leave your 10 very exposed.

Simonds - Some good passes but also some bad decision making. A couple of times he looked like he didn't know what to do and dithered and made a silly error in the double roll.

Vukasinovic - Mostly for not having a plan to stop their maul which crushed us. He should have been lineout leader and mixing up how we defended. We put a jumper up almost every time and they had no impact and left us exposed. Could have tried sacking the catcher as soon as they landed or setting for the drive. Also missed a couple of tackles.

Good summary. I was similarly quietly impressed with McArthur. He made an impression when he came on and didn’t disgrace himself in the scrum.

[DGP Wasp]

I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.

I've seen nothing to suggest Mitchell's presence has had any significant impact on performances or results.  The problems we have today are the same problems we had for all of last season both when Mitchell was here and elsewhere.  Not saying Mitchell isn't making a difference, it's hard to believe that someone of his experience doesn't contribute anything, but the blame for some of our recent performances does not lie with Mitchell's on/off relationship with the club.

[mike909]

I may be 100% wrong but I’m doubtful about Mitchell’s impact. His whole stay here has a transient feel to it.
VV - share those concerns - and would add the penalty count to it.

I'm in the same area as Shugs - I'd need to see some evidence of change once he's back in office. I do think it would be harsh to judge on last season when too often the coach driver was bringing his boots and fit players like Stooke starting 22 games in the Prem. It's hard to be objective. Well it is for me!

Whilst I do think there is a view that this season Wasps are "flaky" after half time, I do think it's potentially too easy to suggest it's a club wide issue. Tuesday's game was one which looked a lot like Tigers vs Saints in the Prem. One side with the wheels and able to use quick ball - when they could provide it - and one that absorbed that pressure, didn't panic and bullied their way through to a win. I think we were a tad unlucky on Tues and more in the game than Saints. And when talking about the game on Tues, Austin H - no fan of ours - was quite complementary about our play both on Tuesday and in the Prem and was essentially (to precis rather) suggesting we'd not had the "rub of the green"

So - what would be more of a worry is if we're not clever enough to adapt. in the 2021 6Ns, Wales beat England (in part) by not kicking to touch (avoiding the Eng lineout throw in) and kept the ball in wide channels looking to their "all team" ability over the ball. But this season, we've looked good individually too often not great as a team when under any pressure and seemingly failing to demonstrate on and off field leadership such that 20+ point leads seem marginal....

So we have a week "off" and Saints at home next week. We need to show we can adapt as Oct includes Tigers and Exeter away......which is no-one's idea of gimmies... 

[Sliminator]

Full match up on Premiership website

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/watch/full-match-leicester-tigers-v-wasps-premiership-rugby-cup-round-2