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Mike Teague and Peter Winterbottom on not watching the World Cup, boring England and Eddie Jones

Exclusive interview: Former England and Lions duo recall a different era for rugby and reveal why they will cycle across America next year
By Charles Richardson, Rugby Reporter 30 August 2023 ? 5:38pm


Ask Peter Winterbottom and Mike Teague, those two flankers of granite and iron, who were their toughest adversaries and the answers come as speedily as the ground was covered during their salad days on the English back row in the 1980s and 90s.

?Not Dean Richards!? Teague blurts, after having regularly ribbed his former back-row colleague throughout our chat. ?No, that?s easy, Wayne ?Buck? Shelford.?

?Michael Jones,? says Winterbottom. ?He was faster, stronger and tougher than me... so it was a bit of a struggle!?


Thirty years since the duo retired from the amateur game, however, and their most fearsome opponent might yet be to come ? but more on that later. Right now, the rugby chat comes thick and fast.

?I don?t watch the game anymore,? Teague, 63, says. ?I don?t watch England. The game has moved on. Stating the obvious. The game that I see now is not really a part of what we chat about. It?s a different game, ethos and mentality. I wouldn?t understand this generation of players; they wouldn?t understand me.

?I?m done with it, but, like anything, if I?m asked to do something ? like appear at the Slater Cup [between Leicester and Gloucester] ? then I will. I hadn?t been to Kingsholm for 10 years. It was lovely to see the Leicester supporters, and it was the first time that Dean [Richards] had been back doing something for his old club. We had a couple of pints and it was lovely to see the interaction between Deano and his fans and me with the Gloucester fans. I miss that part of it.

?But, no [I won?t watch the World Cup] and I didn?t watch the last one.?

Winterbottom interjects: ?Oh, you?re boring, aren?t you!?

?No, Wints, I?ve told you, I was never a great fan of Eddie Jones,? Teague replies.

?He coaches Australia now!? Winterbottom, 63, says.

?No, in the past. I look at it this way: you don?t go to a World Cup, in 2019, without Danny Cipriani, one of your best players, because you can?t control him,? Teague says, heartily. ?He was playing incredibly well for Gloucester and it was a travesty that the modern era never got to see how good he could have been.?

?I will be watching the World Cup but I won?t be going to France,? says Winterbottom. ?I don?t watch as much Premiership as I?d like, but I watch quite a bit of the southern-hemisphere stuff. And Esher every week.

?I?m not very hopeful for England. We laboured for a few years under Eddie Jones and I don?t see things changing quickly. The game has to be played with ambition and I don?t see that happening with England at the moment. The risk-taking is minimal ? but there are talented players! We should have a style of rugby that?s far more entertaining and easier to watch ? which, ultimately, will be more successful, I think.?
?The weight I needed for punching and hitting people in rugby does not lend itself to cycling?

Since retiring, neither has had anything to do with an England team which has grown increasingly beleaguered. Teague is still a builder, but he has nothing to do with Gloucester, his club, nor Teague?s Bar in the town ? ?It?s a sore subject; I never received any financial gain from that; I was conned, not by Gloucester, but that?s another story? ? while Winterbottom is chief taster for his wife?s cookery business ? ?I get sacked every week then reinstated immediately? ? and is invited to Harlequins? games at Twickenham, but is not a regular at the Stoop. The former openside is director of rugby at Esher RFC, whose first XV play in National 2 South East, but that is his only formal link to the sport.

The silver lining to that cloud is that they have the freedom to pursue passions and challenges outside of rugby, one of which, coming up next May, might be their most formidable yet. These titans of the back row for England and the British and Irish Lions will be cycling over 3,000 miles from San Francisco to New York to raise money for the My Name?5 Doddie Foundation, the charity funding research into a cure and treatment for motor neurone disease.


?What Peter said was: ?We?ve got to do it now because we might not be able to in a few years!?? Teague says. ?When we played together in the back row, I used to follow whatever Wints used to say and do. And he?s a great one for talking me into things ? like he did for the cycle in Australia for the 2013 Lions. I had no cycling experience, wasn?t used to it, out of shape, not really knowing anything about it and I thought I?d be fine. We ended up chuffing up this 13km hill ? a ?little peach? as they?d say in Australia ? and it was madness. That was the only time I?ve fallen out with you, Wints, you told me Australia was flat!

?But, with your mates around you ? Roger Uttley did it, too ? it was magnificent. I?ve gotten into cycling more but I?ve realised that the weight I needed for rugby, for punching and hitting people, does not lend itself to cycling.

?Wearing Lycras sits fine with me now because when I looked along the line [in the Brussels to London ride, 2015] and saw Dean Richards wearing them... it was ugly. It was ugly. Clarkey [Ben Clarke] didn?t look much better, actually, and he?s younger than us!?


Would Richards be able to join them now? ?No,? Winterbottom replies bluntly, before Teague adds: ?Recently, we did this thing with Ed Slater, and like he was as a rugby player, Dean Richards can do anything he sets his mind to. And I was looking at the wattage he was putting out on the bike... unbelievable. And he was cycling for 45 minutes! I was slightly embarrassed ? I just didn?t tell him he was good! Peter is the best I?ve seen, though.?

?Jon Hall?s a hell of a cyclist,? Winterbottom says. ?I don?t think he does much now. There?s a non-stop ride across the States, Race across America, an annual event, and he did that in a team of four as a relay. He was bloody good ? way better than us. He was a good rugby player, too.

?Our challenge isn?t non-stop, though. It?s a 35-day cycle, with three rest days. We set off on May 19 and finish on June 22. We have stops just short of Denver, St Joseph and Indianapolis. We have cyclists who will do the whole thing and then others joining for the last eight days. One of Teaguey?s former team-mates at Gloucester, John Gadd...?

Teague interjects: ?Another underrated player!?

?Another guy from my time at Quins, Craig Luxton, who played for England B, he?s coming over from New Zealand to join,? Winterbottom adds. ?We?re hoping for about 15 cyclists. We?ll be living in Winnebagos for the whole trip. We?ll have a full support team with medic, cook, mechanic and some drivers of the vehicles; a convoy of Winnebagos going across the States. That?s the only way to do it. We?ve been looking at hotels but the problem is that you can cycle for 100 miles and you don?t actually go through a town. It?s very difficult to do this with hotels. So, the obvious thing to do was to be self-sufficient. It?s going to be quite an operation.

?It?s a chance for us to do our bit, while we?re still able to. And while people of a certain age actually know who we are!?

Of course, now, there is an added, personal incentive for Winterbottom and Teague. In June, the duo learnt of the passing of their former team-mate and dear friend, Paul ?The Judge? Rendall. The loosehead was diagnosed with motor neurone disease in 2022 and died a year later, aged 69, after having won 28 caps for England between 1984 and 1991. The duo, who themselves managed almost 100 caps for England and the Lions between them, have the fondest memories of their former comrade, including one from the build-up to the 1991 World Cup final which went down in squad folklore.

?It?s a cruel disease,? Winterbottom says. ?When Doddie [Weir] was diagnosed, we?d heard about Joost van der Westhuizen, obviously, but it really does hit home when someone closer to you gets it. Doddie lasted six years, which is quite a long time for someone with the disease to last. He did a massive amount of work promoting his charity, raising money and awareness for the disease. The Judge didn?t last anything like as long as Doddie.

?I just remember The Judge?s court sessions ? but I don?t really remember them all! They were just brilliant. He was in charge of team discipline and he was a brilliant judge; harsh but fair.?
?I knew the Judge and Doddie; it has become very personal for us?

Winterbottom and Teague giggle almost in unison, before the former continues: ?He was in a team of lots of characters, but he was the one who everyone looked towards. Teams with camaraderie and closeness, it doesn?t just happen. It?s because certain people make it happen and the Judge was one of those guys. He was a good player ? a great England player until Jason Leonard turned up. He then became uncle and Jason was nephew. He was just one of those guys that was always upbeat, having a laugh and positive.

Teague adds: ?The first time I?d come into the England team was the Calcutta Cup, Peter Wheeler was captain. I was there because John Scott and Bob Hesford were injured, so I was either playing or on the bench. The first person I roomed with at my first England experience was, luckily, the Judge. He said: ?I?m going to look after you, my son.? And he showed me the ropes. He was such a character and a lovely man. It?s destroyed everybody who knew him. He was like an old owl; full of knowledge and experience.

?In the week leading up to the 1991 World Cup final, the pressure went on the scrum machine and there was this almighty crack and snap ? like a broken leg. The Judge?s Achilles had just snapped. Jon Olver, the reserve front-rower, came over as quick as a flash and just said: ?Can I have your tickets??

?It was the Thursday before the final, the Judge hit the deck, Olver strolled over and we thought he was concerned about him and he just said: ?Can I have your tickets for Saturday??,? Winterbottom adds.

?With other people who you don?t know, you don?t have that connection to them so you don?t get the shock of someone contracting the disease. But I knew the Judge and I did know Doddie; it has become very personal for us. We?re doing it for someone who was very dear to our hearts.?

?That man in the wheelchair who I saw towards the end, it just wasn?t him,? Teague adds. ?I couldn?t believe... that could be any one of us. We were there for Doddie?s first cap, too ? he was obviously younger than us ? but you get to know these players. And a lot of them are just good lads, same with Ed Slater [who also has MND]. Real good guys.?

To honour the memory of those who have fallen foul of one of the cruellest conditions, the duo?s energy and emotion will now be firmly honed in one direction: the route from San Francisco to New York.

?To think that this time next year we?ll have cycled 3,200 miles across the US,? Winterbottom says. ?It?ll be an incredible achievement. From a personal point of view, it?ll be something we can take to our graves that we?ve done, and most haven?t.?

Teague, upon hearing that, cannot resist a final gag: ?And it might speed up the process of us getting there!?

‌If you would like to donate to ?Doddie?5 Ride USA?, then you can do so via JustGiving