Thoughts vs. Saints

[RBB]

I have given a starting 15 some thought, I think we need to go out with intent so I have come up with this, not given replacements any real thought yet but would bring Porter in for Hampson...Hampson is a liability IMHO. Also, do we introduce Umaga?

I have also stuck with ED and WLR, I am putting the last 2 performances down as festive fatigue....hopefully Launch is back, so I would start him, ordinarily I would have have him as back up but this is a MUST WIN in my opinion.

15 Le Roux
14 Bassett
13 Campagnaro
12 Juan De Jongh
11 Daly
10 Sopoaga
9 Robson
1 Harris
2 Cruse
3 Cooper-Woolley
4 Launchbury (c)
5 Myall
6 Shields
7 Young
8 Hughes

[NellyWellyWaspy]

IMV 11, 12 and 13 are dependent whether Neal is available. My preference is to play Daly at 13. I think he is best there. I then debate whether to use Booj at 12 or JdeJ.

I have no idea what our injury list looks like, so the front five is more a case of who we have. Just how rusty would Joe be?

Agree with Porter on the bench and not Hampson. I would much rather have Campo and JdeJ on the bench to make the 3 backs replacements.

To cover the back row, Carr. I guess with your picks it would be Rowlands to cover the locks, and then who coves the front row? Will Ashley be back? If so, then him for sure. That leaves us needing one fit prop each for TH and LH.

[mike909]

Couldn't argue with that selection.

My main thought would be about how to play. There is a bit of a lingering hint of uncertainty over style and tactics. My view is that you play to the strengths of the team, and we are without Danny and Wade and Jimmy, but that doesn't mean the last season style is the only way to play, and with WLR and ED able to come and play second receiver or vary their entry to the line, there ought to be enough ways of using ball

However, we really need to provide the backs with enough decent front foot ball. You can see the difference between England in 2016 and 2018 6Ns as failing to provide good go forward ball (amongst a lot of other things) and if we can get Hughes and others to take the ball at pace and keep the defence honest then we have more than enough talent to get over any gain line and score

Also, its not sacrilege, even for Wasps to play territory, kick to space, take the ball into contact rather than risk a 25% offload, least as an option.

I may be thick, but I have often struggled to understand what our game plan is a lot of the season

Jacob U - must be in the 23 more often - allows max flexibility too being able to play 10,12,15 and probably wing at a pinch! Also, he is the sort of player we ought to want to progress and lead Wasps into the future. Looked a great player every opportunity I've seen him play.

[RBB]

Style I think is the issue, when I look at a possible 23, then we should be competing every week. We don't appear to have developed a 'new style' to accommodate the personnel we have this season. Against Bath, the forwards were taking the ball standing still, so very little was gained, on most occasions ground was lost. Keeping it simple is key, make ground and keep the ball, against Quins we did it in patches ,far too often crazy ideas took over and the ball was lost. Hampson coughing it up towards the end was a lost try in my opinion, poor decision making when there were options.

There does seem to be a ground swell of opinion re: Umaga, I think there something to be said about having someone of that ability and heritage in the squad provides something different.

Agree with the point on Neal but he is not a winger, there have been several commentaries where I have heard 'Neal has come off his wing', no bad thing but he is a barrelling centre and is a strong and eager bench option, Booj needs a rest. Gaby is fit so may be a bench option. Carr and ZZ are definite replacements for me. So I have Neal, Umaga (covering 10), Rowlands, ZZ, Carr, Stuart, Ashley and Porter.

That would be a top four 23 in normal circumstances, the issue is confidence and not conceding early. We also need to think about lessons learned and what we see other teams doing well, Quins beat us by being pains in the backside and playing in the margins (not suggesting we do either) but we don't appear to learn or adapt, the moment of genius from Danny Care was a lesson in vision and innovation. We have lacked vision and innovation. My fear is that Dai picks Watson now he is fit, saying that he will probably come to life this week and score a hat trick and get MotM!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

One thing that I, and many other commentators, have noted is that we try to go wide with the dual attack line, way too early in the phases, without 'earning the right to go wide'.

The dummy receiver is ignored (the dummy is not 'bought') and the deep receiver is clobbered by a rush defense, or, under pressure, fluffs the next pass. The whole move was a very Cips-esque attack and relied on Cips at 10, who would often not do as expected and thus the defenders tended to hold back. That was what made it work. We don't have Cips, so we should stop trying to do it. Our A team does exactly the same thing, and similarly the deep receiver gets clobbered.

Better to run a number of phases to disorganise the defense, and then try it. Or not do it at all. At the start of the season, when we won a few games, we weren't doing it. Instead we were running through the phases, and our forwards were scoring the tries, with the occasional backs try when the defense was out of place.

[wasps]

I think that our problems have stemmed from trying to play a 2016-2018 vintage of rugby with a different set of personnel.
This has led to some losses due to injuries and new players trying to get used to the system, which has led to a loss of confidence, and then players trying too hard to emulate a complex system.

During the 2016-2018 years, we played our best rugby when the fly half kept it relatively simple, and held the ball until the last moment and then chose a runner.
There's no reason why our current players can't adapt to a similar system, but you do that when you're confident and when there's stability within the team selection.
(Remember that it also involved fast passing, intricate positioning and running lines from 9, 12 and 15 which are positions that have changed a lot)


So, I agree with Mike.
Our forwards are a general improvement this season on other seasons, and we need to be more reliant on them than we're used to.
Some of it is cliche, but we need to go through phases and play in the right areas. We need to not panic if we're not breaking the defensive line, and if we aren't going anywhere, rather than throwing 50/50 offloads, we need to look to kick for territory, kick for touch and put them under pressure.


Teams are expecting us to come at them with an unstructured plan and we need to change that. Let's hold the ball and get Saints playing from within their own 22.
It's a different approach than what we've done for the last few years, but it's the foundation of rugby and at the moment we need to do something to remind these guys what rugby is all about.
I'm not saying that we throw the harlem globetrotters stuff away completely, but let's introduce it when we're actually able to perform the basics properly, when we have our best players available and when the players have some confidence in what they're doing.

[wasps]

One thing that I, and many other commentators, have noted is that we try to go wide with the dual attack line, way too early in the phases, without 'earning the right to go wide'.

The dummy receiver is ignored (the dummy is not 'bought') and the deep receiver is clobbered by a rush defense, or, under pressure, fluffs the next pass. The whole move was a very Cips-esque attack and relied on Cips at 10, who would often not do as expected and thus the defenders tended to hold back. That was what made it work. We don't have Cips, so we should stop trying to do it. Our A team does exactly the same thing, and similarly the deep receiver gets clobbered.

Better to run a number of phases to disorganise the defense, and then try it. Or not do it at all. At the start of the season, when we won a few games, we weren't doing it. Instead we were running through the phases, and our forwards were scoring the tries, with the occasional backs try when the defense was out of place.

I agree entirely.
When Cips first joined us, we had the same problem, which I assume is because everyone was getting used to the systems so the plays were made slowly and a long way behind the gain line.... they were therefore easy to read.
The difference was that we often had a backline with the same, high quality personnel (Robson, Jimmy, Elliot, WlR, Wade, Basset) who bought into the style and adapted quickly.

It's obviously been done to death already, but we haven't had that consistency, or the consistent experience in the key positions in our back line this year.


As I said above, I don't see why it can't work, but I feel that we need to build up to it given the position we're currently in

[westwaleswasp]

I think whatever team we put out will be unable to play a conservative gameplan effectively.

I would be surprised if Launch started given the time out.

 A lack of ballast in a second row lacking Launch's work, Dan's kicking from hand not being one of his strengths, a lack of defensive effectiveness, a twelve who is not Jimmy, and Lima not being confident/in form would make it difficult to go to another gameplan.


We will often negate the strengths we do have if we resort to kicking for territory regularly. Carr and Young offer unparalleled mobility for back row players, Wlr and Daly offer a genuinely terrifying strike running threat.

I am not saying don't kick, we kicked last year with Danny and Jimmy, I am saying a back to basics approach won't work. It is the downside of our style these past few years, it has a high ceiling but a low floor, and right now we are on the low floor.

I would like to see Lima play a little less deep.
Sorry to disagree with the consensus, but plan B won't work. We need to be better at plan A.

[mike909]

Westwales - not sure if anyone (I was certainly not!) suggesting a back to basics, just a) a style suited to not having Danny and Wade in the side - two players that just by being on the pitch caused problems for the opposition and b) have the option of playing more conservatively - but done well - when the more "extravagant" isn't on. As said above, better matching of personnel now in the squad to tactics

[BG]

Re - Launchers. In my view returning injured players should always start a game and then see how far they can go into the game (in terms of match fitness and the possibility of a re-occuring injury). If you bring them off the bench then the coach has to guess/hope they last for what every time there is left in the game.

[westwaleswasp]

We certainly need to kick sometimes when it is not on. I thought we started to do that last year. I can see why we are reluctant, though. We kick to touch, they maul, get a penalty, because the maul hopelessly favours the attackers.
We kick to space and then they run at us, and this year it has been like a knife through butter as we offer defence marginally more threatening than a welcome mat and a cup of tea.
We are dogleg central and are missing one on ones, so the kicking option becomes counter productive. It is no coincidence Sarries established a kicking game, good chase and strong defence before adding on the extras.  Given our defence I can see why we have not kicked too often.

[RBB]

I am all for kicking when necessary or it is the clear option, however it needs to be done well. Thus far this season we have, kicked out on the full too many times and been dragged back, WLR seemed to habitually do that vs. Bath in the European game. We repeatedly don't make touch and not make it into the 22. Searle often tries to hard as does Lima, they go for kicks that are do'able but are too risky.

I would get Jimmy coaching the team in the art as Searle, Lima, Daly and others have been poor. This would make a good segway into him slotting in to the coaching set up and fixing an area of poor performance.

We can all see what has gone wrong, I wonder how much video analysis is done by the coaching team, what worries me is we could doing the same things poorly and lessons aren't being learned.

[wasps]

I'm not suggesting for one minute that we never play through the backs, or that we kick all our ball away.

What I'm saying is that I don't think the players at the moment have the confidence to make the right decisions instinctively, and because of that, they're playing deeper, sometimes making the wrong choices and throwing low percentage offloads.

When you're confident, you (and fans) remember the offloads that come off (like Lima's lovely bit of play last week)
When you're losing and have low confidence, only the dropped balls are remembered.


I think we need to trust ourselves to be able to go through phases and retain ball rather than needing to keep it alive at all costs.
Very few teams regularly maul from their own 22. Instead, they'll often kick for touch themselves from a lineout, resulting in us getting a lineout in their half and a chance to reset.


I do agree that we need to utilise the strengths of our best players, i.e. Daly and WlR.
However, that doesn't have to be every play, and it doesn't have to happen when it's a questionable opportunity.

[Hymenoptera]

I'd like to give Campo the 13 shirt for a while, I think he's a good operator.
JdJ hasn't worked as well at 12 but could be worth another shout. Daly on the wing.
I'd like to see ZZ start, he has a point of difference and it could be something we need, also think Stuart to start with JcW coming on later, Stuart is a better call carrier and equal in the scrum.
I wish we had another option to Bassett who for me has really gone off the boil, his route 1 mentality has really been shown up this year with the lack of space we seem to have nowdays.
The real Sops needs to start showing up...I'm not knocking him exactly but he's had enough games now to start improving and the whole point of having a player of his caliber is that even in adversity they can create something and show that point of difference that sets them apart from the average player. At the moment he is just shipping the ball on so deep and quickly that the opo inside man has time to realign the whole defensive line and we have no where to go and offer zero threat. Not sure where his kicking or grubber game has gone but i'm starting to get a bit of a downer on him, which I dont want to. I know he is settling in etc but he should still be showing more...he's supposed to be a world top 5 or so fly half.

[andermt]

Don't we have to give Daly a break at some point as per the England rules?

Assume this would need to be before they disappear off for the 6N's?