Sarries and the Cap

[Neils]

Bought out I believe.

[Neils]

He has put up a correction to Post 2 and a PS tweet.

Amendment to tweet 2. Should read ‘zero doubt in my mind.’ Amendment to tweet 12. ‘Majority of Clubs appeared not.’ A few people have quite rightly pointed out that I’m making a statement of fact in these cases and asking for evidence which was solely conversations at the time.

P.S I offered an idea that we outsource salary cap investigations to a third party, like PWC. This would reduce self interest and the ability for Clubs to brush breaches under the carpet. PWC could be financially incentivised with bonus money from fines. This idea was shot down.

[RogerE]

If I remember correctly, it was because of Ryan's insistence that Glos kept to the salary cap they released, and we got Nicky Robinson.

[BG]

He has put up a correction to Post 2 and a PS tweet.

Amendment to tweet 2. Should read ‘zero doubt in my mind.’ Amendment to tweet 12. ‘Majority of Clubs appeared not.’ A few people have quite rightly pointed out that I’m making a statement of fact in these cases and asking for evidence which was solely conversations at the time.

P.S I offered an idea that we outsource salary cap investigations to a third party, like PWC. This would reduce self interest and the ability for Clubs to brush breaches under the carpet. PWC could be financially incentivised with bonus money from fines. This idea was shot down.

I think it is already outsourced but PWC can only look into the club's accounts. They can't look into the player's bank accounts so the cap is almost unenforecable. It effectively comes down to how deep the pockets are of the club or the owner.

This is how easy it would be to circumvent. ABC Ltd is a finance services company and invoice Club X RFC £500k for services rendered. No service is provided but who's to know that. This payment wouldn't stand out on the club X RFC payroll as its being paid to a 3rd party supplier of financial services with no links to a player.

Finance company ABC Ltd then  pay £100k each to the Ltd companies of 5 players who play for Club X RFC for "motivational speaking" . PWC has no legal authority to ask to inspect the accounts of ABC Ltd or the 5 players Ltd companies. As long as the correct tax is paid by the 5 players' Ltd companies and by ABC Ltd they are doing nothing wrong and PWC are left scratching their collective heads, not that they care too much as their consultancy invoices are being paid as well by PRL.

All very cosey

[Neils]

I see the Daily Mail Print addition has a Day 3 story. Apparently one club has now engaged professional consultants to look into Sarries Salary Cap details. Weird one this with no suggestion of which club.

[Marlovian]

Here's the link: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6774593/Saracens-probed-rival-club-Firm-hired-Premiership-team-investigate-offshore-accounts.html

[Rossm]

Thanks for the link. I wonder which club they are referring to, perhaps us? Daly's move to Sarries and jump on the gravy train with one year left on his contract must have left a nasty taste. Could be Exeter, directly competing with Sarries for top spot wanting to give them a kick in the goolies.

[RBB]

Interesting to see who the 'alleged' club is? It won't be a club that is already in the cap limelight is my bet, there are a few...

[BG]

I wonder if it was the mystery club that gave the heads up to the Daily Mail in the first place. For some reason I can't see the DM having investigative journalists.. they normally just re-hash what ever a PR company or agent puts in front of them.

Its also interesting to note that only 4 clubs wanted further action to be taken in the first episode but the other clubs wanted to brush it under the carpet... I wonder why.

   

[wasps]

Do the numbers really add up and provide Saracens the advantage that everyone assumes they have?

The Mail found companies for Wigglesworth, the vunipola brothers and recently, Farrell.

Whatever dividend they may or may not be pulling out of their companies and whatever noted asset they may be left with permanently afterwards, does it really add up to such a huge number to give Saracens their advantage

Obviously, any advantage is useful.
But if the players are pulling even a £50k dividend per year, that can presumably mean they're being officially underpaid by that £50k. Across the 4 players, that would equate to half a Daly (roughly)


There's got to be more to this.
Either other players have these agreements and they just haven't been found yet
Or, as someone has already suggested, these are the ones that people are meant to find
... Or, it's not as bad as people are making out.... That being said, there's a hell of a lot of smoke now

[AKWasp]

There was a quote in the 2nd article that said other teams had been asked if they had offers for saracens players turned down that were significantly higher than current/new contracts that Sarries gave.

Sounds a bit like Daly-

Sarries fans: ‘He’s signed for less money’
Dai: ‘He’s certainly not gone for less’

Technically both correct if Sarries have been exploiting loopholes- less salary but more financials elsewhere

[Hymenoptera]

Do the numbers really add up and provide Saracens the advantage that everyone assumes they have?

The Mail found companies for Wigglesworth, the vunipola brothers and recently, Farrell.

Whatever dividend they may or may not be pulling out of their companies and whatever noted asset they may be left with permanently afterwards, does it really add up to such a huge number to give Saracens their advantage

Obviously, any advantage is useful.
But if the players are pulling even a £50k dividend per year, that can presumably mean they're being officially underpaid by that £50k. Across the 4 players, that would equate to half a Daly (roughly)


There's got to be more to this.
Either other players have these agreements and they just haven't been found yet
Or, as someone has already suggested, these are the ones that people are meant to find
... Or, it's not as bad as people are making out.... That being said, there's a hell of a lot of smoke now

Erm yes, its simples

Firstly no other club can compete to sign Sarries players.
No other club can retain their own players against a Sarries offer.
Sarries can build strength in depth no other club can compete with.

The roster they have had over the years is ridiculous.

And dont kid yourself there is 50k here and there, property investment is prob just the tip of it and over long term, it'll be big enough.

[BG]

.. and now it seems Itoje is another player to have had a company set up for him.. Apparently as of the 2018 accounts, his Ltd company had £800k worth of tangible assets.. another property?

I wonder how many of Sarries players have been part of this special arrangment. Given the names that have popped up so far, you would think George, Kruis and Barrett would also be qualified to be part of this.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Let's not forget our own dear Elliot.

[BG]

Elliot already has his own Ltd company but that doesn't mean he can't (well Wray) can't set up another one but we wouldn't know what has happened for another 18 - 24 months because of the delay in posting accounts at Companies house for possibly this coming tax year.

His last years accounts (2017/18) should be posted online in the next few weeks though. It will be interesting to see the massive increase in income.