Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Rossm on January 17, 2019, 10:24:21 AM
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Teaser clues on Wasps' twitter.....................
https://twitter.com/WaspsRugby (https://twitter.com/WaspsRugby)
Any guesses?
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With the clue being he's 28 and in his prime it's got to be Toomaga-Allen.
JCW replacement basically.
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Got it in one (I think) Raggs.
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So, how does he compare to Cips?!! ;-)
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So, how does he compare to Cips?!! ;-)
;D
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willing to be proved wrong but was the last Kiwi prop at Wasps Craig Dowd? He was pretty decent....
But I expect the usual group of knockers will be slagging him off pretty quickly on message boards & social media. ::)
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Well he certainly looks the part. 6ft 4in and 19st 10lbs.
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Will Stuart confirmed as leaving too.
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Will Stuart confirmed as leaving too.
Sorry to hear that's been confirmed.
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Will Stuart confirmed as leaving too.
Sorry to hear that's been confirmed.
Where has that been confirmed?
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/stuart-to-leave-wasps-in-summer/ (https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/stuart-to-leave-wasps-in-summer/)
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Bollocks. Was really hoping he'd stick around. Rumour is Bath waved a huge check under his nose.
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Bollocks. Was really hoping he'd stick around. Rumour is Bath waved a huge check under his nose.
I suppose that's why Wasps have timed each announcement to try and soften the blow of Will Stuart.
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Bollocks. Was really hoping he'd stick around. Rumour is Bath waved a huge check under his nose.
Huge cheques are very hard to ignore. Despite all the gloom and doom merchants, I doubt if there is a lot more to it than that. I presume his senior contract signed last May was for 1 year. Would a 1 year contract be usual for a senior academy player breaking into the seniors?
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He looks an all round beast. The cynic in me says that he would look that as it's an appreciation vid, however..........
https://twitter.com/i/status/1085859914587680769 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1085859914587680769)
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He certainly looks like he could manage 3 Shredded Wheats!
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A 6ft 4 prop.. that's Sheridan, Hayman territory.
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He looks quite speedy for his size. Love the tackling on the compilation. Plus another one who does not go off for the AIs or 6N.
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Bollocks. Was really hoping he'd stick around. Rumour is Bath waved a huge check under his nose.
Wasps just signed Owlett from Exeter as a THP.
Huge cheques are very hard to ignore. Despite all the gloom and doom merchants, I doubt if there is a lot more to it than that. I presume his senior contract signed last May was for 1 year. Would a 1 year contract be usual for a senior academy player breaking into the seniors?
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I think that wasps have had some quality signings over the last couple of days. I hope this puts to bed some peoples impression that there was trouble at mill. it is unlikely that players with obvious connections to current squad members would join an organisation with a toxic culture.
i wish them well for the coming seasons and think that we could be in for some fun at the ricoh.
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Tommy Taylor has repeatedly come up as one that was apparently leaving due to a bad culture, and yet not only did he see out his contract, but he's re-signed. Others who've been with us a long time are also sticking with us. Some are leaving, but I suspect both JCW and Hughes were made very large offers, and both are going to clubs with money and lots of room in the cap.
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I've watched him playing in Super Rugby and was impressed. Strong runner, very good hands, good tackler. Craig Dowd Mark 2.
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Dowd had 60 AB full caps though.
Not a negative or a naysaying comment, but a plea for realism.
If people think he is going to be Dowd Mk II there is a good chance people will be upset very quickly.
As he replaces JCW, who has none, it is all a moot point, but to put it all in context, Paul Doran Jones has more international caps.
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If I remember correctly even Craig had a bit of a slow start with us.
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If I remember correctly even Craig had a bit of a slow start with us.
You are correct sir, he was slow.
and I believe the MarkII comment was based around his style rather than his comparative quality or achievements ...
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Question.
Sops, Fekitoa, Shields and this man make 4 AB's..isn't that 1 over the match day total of foreigners?
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Question.
Sops, Fekitoa, Shields and this man make 4 AB's..isn't that 1 over the match day total of foreigners?
Shields is English. Sops is likely classed as Samoan, so Kolpak, Fekitoa classed as Tongan, so Kolpak, then Jeff, so just the one. However with Brexit, it'll be interesting to see what happens there...
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How can players who have played for the ABs not be New Zealanders?
Shields as English I get, but what are the rules vis-a-vis ABs that enable them to become Pacific islanders? Can Nathan go back after his England career is over?
It seems odd in an era when Tom Young gets tied to Wales forever for comparatively little commitment to them (whilst players playing for England at age group level switch to Wales with impunity), and yet players can play for New Zealand and then get classed as non New Zealanders.
Where does Jimmy fit into this as a zero full cap AB?
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Question.
Sops, Fekitoa, Shields and this man make 4 AB's..isn't that 1 over the match day total of foreigners?
Shields is English. Sops is likely classed as Samoan, so Kolpak, Fekitoa classed as Tongan, so Kolpak, then Jeff, so just the one. However with Brexit, it'll be interesting to see what happens there...
The EQP rule states that roughly 17.5 players in every match day squad must be EQP but this is averaged out across the season. Its not mandatory but a club does face a fine if they don't stick to it.
France have a similar rule now to try and encourage home grown talent.
Brexit has no relevance to this as this is a rule agreed upon by PRL and the RFU.
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How can players who have played for the ABs not be New Zealanders?
Shields as English I get, but what are the rules vis-a-vis ABs that enable them to become Pacific islanders? Can Nathan go back after his England career is over?
It seems odd in an era when Tom Young gets tied to Wales forever for comparatively little commitment to them (whilst players playing for England at age group level switch to Wales with impunity), and yet players can play for New Zealand and then get classed as non New Zealanders.
Where does Jimmy fit into this as a zero full cap AB?
Players' nationalities (citizenship and passport ) have little relevance to what country they can or cannot play for (parents or grandparents can qualify a player)
I believe once you've represented a country at U20 level then you can't represent another country until you qualify via another rule.
Residency rules have changed from 3 to 5 yrs
I'm guessing Jimmy and YY are both EQP considering they both have been in England for so long (residency rules) but that doesn't mean they will ever want to play for England.
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Just a thought but I wonder if Dai is trying to use this band of NZ exiles to establish a new mindset across the squad. If it is the case and it works, it could have a very positive effect on performances.
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I kind of agree with the previous commentary, I think Dai is running a 'new broom' kind of approach this season now. The results have been underwhelming (okay an understatement), and Dai and his team ploughing tons of energy into keeping players is not what he should or want to be doing, if the players have made their minds up. I suspect he has diverted his attention to creating a Wasps, that is now based in Coventry and focused on a different way moving forward, built on a core of loyal players, exciting recruits and solid academy promotees/young prospects. I am personally pretty excited by the front row recruitment, a bit more weight and power will do us no harm. JTA looks a frighteningly good acquisition and has played at the top level, that can be no bad thing. A bit of good news creates a buzz (like what I did there) and a more positive outlook for the club. The next challenge is a decision on full-back, does Dai go with Miller and promote Umaga to understudy...or does he cast his net outside, I suspect the net casting has begun as WLR has been a worst kept secret. ED is off IMO, the delay will be down to legal machinations or making time to make sure Wasps are adequately covered. We still need a replacement for Wade, as Neal is okay but not a natural and Watson will be leaving I think, as that was another project I suspect which hasn't paid off.
This last few days, after all of the rumor gloom and sniping from the anti-Wasps contingent on social media, feels uplifting. I for one am positive about the future. Onward.
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This isn't about EQP payments, or nationality in terms of who you've played rugby for. A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners, by law, you cannot treat EU players differently to English ones, so they don't count, you also can't count kolpak players differently from EU players, so they don't count. So if Sopoaga has Samoan citizenship, he comes under Kolpak.
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A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners,
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Really? Where did you find this little gem from?
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A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners,
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Really? Where did you find this little gem from?
https://www.premiershiprugby.com/about-us/faqs/
How many foreign or overseas players can play in the Premiership?
It is important to note that the legal definition of foreign players is different to one of non-English players. In addition, players can fall under the Bosman or Kolpak rule. The Bosman ruling reinforced the Treaty of Rome in a sporting context, allowing the free movement of EU national workers around other EU countries. This effectively means any EU national has the same rights as any ‘local’ worker and therefore cannot be defined as a foreigner.
In the Premiership, the rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time, at all periods during the season.
Read more at https://www.premiershiprugby.com/about-us/faqs/#DrweJgV1S3ekJBYs.99
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A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners,
That's not quite right Raggs, from your own link:
"A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time"
So the squad can have more, but only two on the pitch at any one time.
& remembering the definition of "Foreigner" i.e. non EU or Kolpak.
So from a rugby perspective, NZ, Australia & Georgia are foreign.
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So if Sopoaga has Samoan citizenship, he comes under Kolpak
Don't know about that. He was born in NZ as was Jeff T-A. Fekitoa is presumably kolpak as he was born in Tonga. I would assume (hope) Wasps have done their homework on our new signings' future availability.
BEWARE POLITICS ALERT
God knows what happens post Brexit, deal or no deal. The whole thing is such a clusterfuck.
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A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners,
That's not quite right Raggs, from your own link:
"A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time"
So the squad can have more, but only two on the pitch at any one time.
& remembering the definition of "Foreigner" i.e. non EU or Kolpak.
So from a rugby perspective, NZ, Australia & Georgia are foreign.
What is Kolpak? Sorry for being stupid but I've never heard of it before?
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The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.
So if you are a citizen of South Africa, which has signed an appropriate agreement, you have the same employment rights as an EU citizen.
I assume citizenship may be different from residency rules, so some of the NZ contingent may qualify if they have passports from other, EU or Kolpak countries.
As noted though, no one know what will happen long term after B**x*t
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A match day 23 is only allowed 2 foreigners,
That's not quite right Raggs, from your own link:
"A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time"
So the squad can have more, but only two on the pitch at any one time.
& remembering the definition of "Foreigner" i.e. non EU or Kolpak.
So from a rugby perspective, NZ, Australia & Georgia are foreign.
True, but I doubt many DORs risk having a third on the bench in case of injury forcing replacements, maybe prop for prop/hooker for hooker etc.
I'd not considered Georgia though! That means Zhvania, JTA and Gopps would be likely "foreigners" that I can think of.
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The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.
So if you are a citizen of South Africa, which has signed an appropriate agreement, you have the same employment rights as an EU citizen.
I assume citizenship may be different from residency rules, so some of the NZ contingent may qualify if they have passports from other, EU or Kolpak countries.
As noted though, no one know what will happen long term after B**x*t
Blimey.. that's complicated. But if you have a work permit (assuming you're from USA.. Argentina, NZ ) that usurps the Kolpak ruling
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Does it circumvent the Premiership Rugby rules?
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my understanding is that a work permit allows you to play in the country issuing the permit. It doesn't impact on the premierships rules around "Foreigners". Those 2 foreigners that can be in the squad must have work permits, but having a work permit doesn't mean you are not a foreigner.
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Question.
Sops, Fekitoa, Shields and this man make 4 AB's..isn't that 1 over the match day total of foreigners?
Shields is English. Sops is likely classed as Samoan, so Kolpak, Fekitoa classed as Tongan, so Kolpak, then Jeff, so just the one. However with Brexit, it'll be interesting to see what happens there...
Of course Shields is...knob moment, what was i thinking
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Shields is EQP but you dont need a UK passport to be EQP.Is it possible that he has a NZ passport not UK and therefore is simultaneously foreign and a true-brit? :o
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I assume Hughes (EQP obviously) has a Fijian passport, although he doesn't count as foreign both because of Kolpak, & he's married to an EU citizen.
I assume Brad would qualify for British citizen ship as he has British parents (Is it parents or grand parents, not sure).
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Shields is EQP but you dont need a UK passport to be EQP.Is it possible that he has a NZ passport not UK and therefore is simultaneously foreign and a true-brit? :o
He would qualify for a British passport, and I'm positive it would be a requirement from Wasps that he applies for it, to confirm that they can use him.
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Shields is EQP but you dont need a UK passport to be EQP.Is it possible that he has a NZ passport not UK and therefore is simultaneously foreign and a true-brit? :o
He would qualify for a British passport, and I'm positive it would be a requirement from Wasps that he applies for it, to confirm that they can use him.
Did the Kolpak ruling happen before the Bosman ruling?
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Erm? Did I lock this by accident? Or has it been done for a reason I can't see?
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Wasn't me! Or at least not knowingly...
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I could have clicked it by accident, if so, sorry folks!
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This is a really interesting discussion. If Jeff T-A, Lima and Jimmy (if he doesn’t already have residency) are fit (pretty sure Fekitoa has a Tongan passport) am I right in thinking Jimmy could only be used to replace Lima and Dai has to hope his other LHs are fit as Zvanhia will not be able to play.
And depending on what happens with Brexit all Kolpak bets could be off??
Hope we’ve thought this through as arguably all the above would be in our first choice 23 next season.
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Lima has Samoan heritage so could have a Samoan passport and then i believe covered by kolpak
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You'd think this would all be in hand as we would likely have had similar discussions when we had 2xPiutau's and Jimmy
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You'd think this would all be in hand as we would likely have had similar discussions when we had 2xPiutau's and Jimmy
Wasn't Smith with us at the same time?
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You'd think this would all be in hand as we would likely have had similar discussions when we had 2xPiutau's and Jimmy
Wasn't Smith with us at the same time?
All 3 of whom likely hold Tongan passports.
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My point was more that it probably came up that it might be an issue, so we're hopefully prepared for it this year
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In this international day and age, many of us are able to apply for passports of more than one country. I would be surprised if Sopoaga, Fekitoa and Toomaga-Allen do NOT have grandparents in one of those Pacific Islands that would allow them to be not internationals under these rules. I suspect that Gopperth could actually be EQP under the rules for the length of time he has lived and played here.
Even in my own family, my daughter and wife can apply for Irish passports (my wife's father is from Dublin). My daughter's English boyfriend was actually born in Germany, lived his early years in Sicily and now lives in England - his parents are both English.
It is the nature of our International world. Flags, nationalities and ethnic labels are starting to become meaningless.
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Whether Lima has more than one passport or not, at least one of them is a NZ one. He put a picture of him & his families passports on Instagram.
I am comfortable that Wasps are fully aware of the rules. Gone are the days of Trevor having to leave the country while his work p[permit was sorted out & Johnny Barrett being played when he wasn't registered!