Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: jamestaylor002 on November 23, 2022, 12:52:41 AM
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Hopefully some good will come of this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63721324 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63721324)
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They made a statement about this taking place a while ago but had gone quiet so good to see it is actually happening, although the RFU will just blame the owners without looking at the bigger picture, and state that neither club really supplied any England players in the last few years, as thats all they are interested in.
Interesting there seems to be no Wasps representation I guess unlike a lot of other clubs Wasps never really had a supporter's group as such, perhaps something that should be rectified when the phoenix rises.
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They made a statement about this taking place a while ago but had gone quiet so good to see it is actually happening, although the RFU will just blame the owners without looking at the bigger picture, and state that neither club really supplied any England players in the last few years, as thats all they are interested in.
Interesting there seems to be no Wasps representation I guess unlike a lot of other clubs Wasps never really had a supporter's group as such, perhaps something that should be rectified when the phoenix rises.
It was set up before Wasps went to the wall (after Worcester though). Once they set a session like this the invitees are fixed.
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Wasps supplied a lot more these past few years than Worcester. Joe, Dobby, Jack, Tom etc. are all complimented by the Jacobs and Paulos on the fringes of the squad, but more importantly, what about Daly, Billy V, Will S etc? All came to rugby via Wasps.
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Wasps supplied a lot more these past few years than Worcester. Joe, Dobby, Jack, Tom etc. are all complimented by the Jacobs and Paulos on the fringes of the squad, but more importantly, what about Daly, Billy V, Will S etc? All came to rugby via Wasps.
But only Joe (if that) could be said to be a regular in recent years. The rest were part of Eddie's try and discard system. Elliot left pre covid and Billy at the dawn of history (according to the RFU).
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Anyone manage to get this live yet?
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It's tomorrow
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I'm surprised Rob Baxter isn't representing both the RFU and PRL..! ;)
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It's tomorrow
Jeez - That will be the reason! :) :) :) :) :)
Am in the HoP tomorrow so will see if I can get in for a bit.
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I'm surprised Rob Baxter isn't representing both the RFU and PRL..! ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Am in the HoP tomorrow so will see if I can get in for a bit.
Greasing palms? ;D ;D ;D
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Am in the HoP tomorrow so will see if I can get in for a bit.
Greasing palms? ;D ;D ;D
Of course :-\
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Choose the hands carefully. :)
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Choose the hands carefully. :)
Wearing gloves!
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;D
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Choose the hands carefully. :)
Wearing gloves!
Hazmat suit would be better!
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Choose the hands carefully. :)
Wearing gloves!
Hazmat suit would be better!
Can't run in that.
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Can't run in that.
Can't run? Be careful or Eddie will pick you to play on the wing for England...
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Can’t pass in one of those suits either — so a ready made replacement for Tuilagi next time he’s injured
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Can I say the Worcester representatives spoke very well for their club. The MP did remember to mention Wasps asoften as he could - thanks However 99% was Worcester. I have a little work to carry out so not sure if I can get back for the PRL/RFU whitewash.
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The chairman's questions and comments show a high degree of empathy. He is suggesting fraud and trading while insolvent could be involved, which are both criminal activities.
RFU and PRL being shown up for their lack of effective governance and inaction. Will be interesting to hear what they have to say. Worcester MP said there was a lot of support from fans and other clubs but will they show that by not grabbing the P shares for themselves. A good argument put for retaining them.
There was talk of an independent regulator and fans having no voice.
A lot of parallels with Wasps apply even though the cases are somewhat different. When asked about sustainability the Worcester representative said there had to be mixed business streams, which is what Wasps were trying to achieve, to feed income back into the rugby business.
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P share being taken
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P share being taken
Is that definite or still to be decided ?
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P share being taken
Is that definite or still to be decided ?
Mr double barrel confirmed to MPs that it was being taken.
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P share being taken
Is that definite or still to be decided ?
And is that just Wuss or ours as well?
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Massey- Ferguson from PRL
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Mr double barrel confirmed to MPs that it was being taken.
Thanks.
I wonder if there is a possibility of legal action to stop that?
The Rugby & The Law guys seemed to be quite suggestive that a lot of the sanctions being discussed were very challenge-able (although that was while ago)
If not, or if there's no one to challenge them, then I don't see much hope for either Wasps or Warriors
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They all frequent the same old boys clubs, and copious quantities of whitewash will be on hand to splash around.
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P share being taken
Is that definite or still to be decided ?
And is that just Wuss or ours as well?
Ours as well. Quoted as only fair to the other teams.
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Quoted BY the other teams. They are the PRL basically. No idea what Massey-Taylor’s role actually is.
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Quoted BY the other teams. They are the PRL basically. No idea what Massey-Taylor’s role actually is.
Both PRL and RFU came across as inept - but we knew that.
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Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, came across particularly badly and was accused of being 'asleep on the job' by the chairman who was scathing in his summing up.
Regarding P shares there was no definite statement on there being no possible retention, only the obfuscation we have already heard about it being inequitable to other clubs that we retain them. So it is inference that we cannot keep them. However, Covid and the economic situation was mentioned several times by RFU and PRL as being a factor in the crisis so I think a challenge can certainly be mounted.
The report will certainly be interesting.
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With the P shares gone, that pretty much kills Wasps and Worcester unless you have prospective owners who bring either (or both, hopefully) clubs back out of love.
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With the P shares gone, that pretty much kills Wasps and Worcester unless you have prospective owners who bring either (or both, hopefully) clubs back out of love.
According the the local MP Worcester prospective owners have a 3 - 5 year P share free plan. I doubt we can do that with no pitch.
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With the P shares gone, that pretty much kills Wasps and Worcester unless you have prospective owners who bring either (or both, hopefully) clubs back out of love.
According the the local MP Worcester prospective owners have a 3 - 5 year P share free plan. I doubt we can do that with no pitch.
Ok, so that's good for Worcester. Not so good for us!
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Telegraph's Senior Sports Correspondent is not impressed.
Rugby chiefs 'should consider resigning' over Worcester fiasco
The chief executives of both the RFU and Premiership Rugby were asked whether they ought not to resign as they were accused by MPs of presiding over “failure on an epic scale” in allowing Wasps and Worcester Warriors to fold.
In a grilling that lasted over an hour at Portcullis House in Westminster, the RFU’s Bill Sweeney and PRL’s Simon Massie-Taylor were accused of a “lack of corrective care and a failure of will” and a “lack of cooperation and communication”.
Sweeney, in particular, faced an uncomfortable series of questions over the RFU’s failure to review its fit and proper persons test, which determines who can own a club. At the time of its collapse, Worcester was partially owned by Colin Goldring, who was previously sanctioned by the Solicitors Regulation Authority.
Julian Knight MP, chair of the select committee for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, asked Sweeney why he had taken no action even after the RFU became aware of the SRA’s sanction. “Because it was superseded by the primary requirement which was to work to save the club,” Sweeney responded. “That took priority.”
Knight was unimpressed. “It looks to me frankly, that you seem to be living in isolation in your ivory tower,” he said. “This story is as old as the hills […] allowing someone you later discover to have been banned by a major institution’s SRA, to retain ownership of a rugby club, and then you’re not even banning them after they’ve driven it into the ground?
"You, frankly, have failed in this instance, and so has the RFU. Should you not be looking at your own position?”
Knight added that he would be writing to the Serious Fraud Office concerning Goldring. “It seems to me he made a financial gain from having told a lie,” he said.
He added of the saga with Worcester and Wasps: “I’ve dealt with football. I thought that was bad. But I have never come across anything as shambolic as this… the lack of care and lack of thought, towards people in your own game, in my entire time as a select committee member."
Massie-Taylor, meanwhile, who took over as the chief executive of PRL in October last year, was told that if a similar situation had occurred in the Premier League, with 16 per cent of its clubs folding in a season, it would be a resignation matter.
“If that had happened in the Premier League, or even the Championship, which is a complete basket case.. that would be four clubs effectively. If that happened the head of the Premier League would resign on the spot. I don’t know how you can come to this committee today and say what you’ve said with a straight face, frankly.”
Massie-Taylor cited “extreme economic circumstances” and said there were plans in place to grow the game.
'If it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable'
Sweeney cited a three-point plan to overhaul rugby in England. Firstly, he said creating a “more compelling” Premiership and Championship would “provide additional revenues”. Secondly, he said there needed to be an overhaul of governance, with a more stringent fit and proper persons test. And finally, he said there needed to be more transparency with regard to club’s finances, as there is in France.
Sweeney added that it was not all doom and gloom, stating that the RFU’s finances were in reasonable shape and rejected allegations from former RFU chief executive Francis Baron who recently accused the RFU of making a cumulative net loss of £73.4m over the period 2012 to 2019. “I don’t know where he got that figure from,” Sweeney said.
The DCMS committee members seemed unimpressed, however. Kevin Brennan MP said there was a “whiff of Kwasi Kwarteng economics” and asked whether international game was “a healthy hand on a diseased arm”. Brennan also said it appeared as if the RFU and PRL were “competitors rather than collaborators”.
Julie Elliott MP, meanwhile, asked Judith Batchelar, chair of the RPA, why her organisation spends half of its £3m turnover on salaries. She added she was concerned about the lack of support mechanism in the RPA. Batchelar said the RPA was re-looking at its remit.
Knight concluded by saying he would not only write to the Serious Fraud Office concerning Mr Goldring but also to John Campion, Police & Crime Commissioner for West Mercia.
“We will issue a special report on sessions from today,” he said.“Frankly if it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable.
As well as the demise of Worcester and Wasps, which came about due to a “lack of corrective care and a failure of will” and a “lack of cooperation and communication”, Knight said that "a huge power imbalance between the players union and the administrators had been exposed" by recent events.
"All in all it adds up to a failure on an epic scale of the game and that’s the reason you’ve had two clubs which have gone under," he said.
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Thanks I realised there were some press there but didn't know who. Good to see some reports.
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Thank you, Ross.
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Confirmed that the RFU and PRL are not fit to run the game. So now they’re in charge of re-modelling and saving it. It’s insane. The under current though does support the thoughts we’ve seen “dripping” out about trying to move to a competitive 2 league system.
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Long article from the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63742093 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63742093)
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It seems as though the pandemic and the economic situation are the perfect cover story for the ineptitude of the PRL’s and RFU’s Exec teams, but it’s not a good enough reason not to take the P shares.
How dare they come out with such garbage.
I’m livid and almost as furious that none of the MPs called them out on this.
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It seems as though the pandemic and the economic situation are the perfect cover story for the ineptitude of the PRL’s and RFU’s Exec teams, but it’s not a good enough reason not to take the P shares.
How dare they come out with such garbage.
I’m livid and almost as furious that none of the MPs called them out on this.
Sitting there watching most of it the MPs did call them out on quite a lot. Remember most of them have little to do with day to day rugby unlike us on this board and elsewhere. They reacted to emails sent to them asking questions. The total ineptitude of the RFU and PRL representatives was obvious to all and the MPs of all hues took them politely to task.
I doubt it will change things because Massey-Ferguson is just a useless mouthpiece for the EAs etc and Sweeney hasn't much clue beyond prawn sandwiches.
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It strikes me that there’s lots of management but little leadership in the RFU and PRL.
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RFU = Right F**k Up.
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How true.
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The phrase 'failure of will' speaks volumes, implying a deliberate course of action and what its potential motivations were. My feeling is this is less down to ineptitude and more down to an EAs and Baxter stitch up.
If the RFU and PRL are quoted in the official report as stating the pandemic was a key factor in this, then surely there is room for legal action regarding the P share, but maybe they are banking on both us and Wuss not having the money to bring a lawsuit.
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I get the feeling that this is just another crowd of people watching the sinking ship, only they are louder than other bystanders.
It won't bring the club back, it won't change the mad opinion that the club game will be better with fewer clubs who will somehow make more money from fewer games.
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Rugby chiefs told to ‘consider resignation’ as MPs hammer Worcester collapse
Bill Sweeney and Simon Massie-Taylor were challenged over failures pertaining to the collapses of both Worcester and Wasps
By Tom Cary, Senior Sports Correspondent and Ben Rumsby 24 November 2022 • 5:37pm
Worcester Warriors fans - Rugby chiefs told to ‘consider resignation’ as MPs hammer Worcester collapse
Worcester became the first Premiership rugby side this season to collapse, followed by Wasps Credit: PA
The chief executives of both the RFU and Premiership Rugby were told to consider resigning as they were accused by MPs of presiding over “failure on an epic scale” in allowing Wasps and Worcester Warriors to fold this season.
Julian Knight MP, chair of the select committee for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, also said he would be referring the case of ousted Worcester co-owner Colin Goldring to the Serious Fraud Office, as well as to the Police and Crime Commissioner for West Mercia.
In a grilling that lasted over an hour at Portcullis House, the RFU’s Bill Sweeney and PRL’s Simon Massie-Taylor were accused of allowing “a liar and asset-stripper to destroy” the Warriors.
Sweeney, in particular, faced an uncomfortable series of questions over the RFU’s failure to apply an effective fit and proper persons test, which determines who can own a club.
At the time of its collapse, Worcester was partially owned by Goldring, who was previously sanctioned by the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal.
Knight asked Sweeney why he had taken no action even after the RFU became aware of the sanction, accusing him of being “completely asleep on the job”.
“Because it was superseded by the primary requirement which was to work to save the club, that took priority,” Sweeney responded. “That took priority.”
Bill Sweeney - Rugby chiefs told to ‘consider resignation’ as MPs hammer Worcester collapse
Sweeney said his organisation had learnt from the episode, announcing plans to introduce rolling integrity checks of club owners.
Knight was unimpressed. “It looks to me frankly, that you seem to be living in isolation in your ivory tower,” he said.
“Allowing someone you later discover to have been banned by a major institution’s SRA, to retain ownership of a rugby club, and then you’re not even banning them after they’ve driven it into the ground?
"You, frankly, have failed in this instance, and so has the RFU. Should you not be looking at your own position?”
Knight said he would escalate the allegations that Goldring made false declarations about his suitability to run Morecambe Football Club before failing the English Football League’s owners’ and directors’ test.
Goldring and former Worcester co-owner Jason Whittingham have always denied any wrongdoing. Contacted by the Telegraph on Wednesday Goldring again denied lying or asset-stripping.
Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring - Rugby chiefs told to ‘consider resignation’ as MPs hammer Worcester collapse
Julian Knight will write to Serious Fraud Office in relation to former Worcester owner Colin Goldring (right) Credit: Twitter
Massie-Taylor, meanwhile, who took over as the chief executive of PRL in October last year, was told that if a similar situation had occurred in the Premier League, with 16 per cent of its clubs folding in a season, it would be a resigning matter.
“If that happened the head of the Premier League would resign on the spot,” Knight said. “I don’t know how you can come to this committee today and say what you’ve said with a straight face, frankly.”
Massie-Taylor cited “extreme economic circumstances”.
He told the committee his organisation would also introduce its own “independently-chaired financial monitoring panel”.
In a further bid to prevent conflicts of interest, clubs have agreed to bring in a National Football League-style commissioner.
'If it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable'
Julie Elliott MP, meanwhile, asked Judith Batchelar, chair of the Rugby Players Association, why her organisation spent half of its £3m turnover on salaries. Elliott added she was concerned about the lack of support mechanism in the RPA. Batchelar said the RPA was “re-looking at its remit”.
“We will issue a special report on sessions from today,” Knight concluded. “Frankly if it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable.
"All in all it adds up to a failure on an epic scale of the game and that’s the reason you’ve had two clubs which have gone under.”
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The Guardian -
RFU under fire from MPs over its role in demise of Worcester and Wasps
Julian Knight accuses Bill Sweeney of being ‘asleep on the job’
DCMS committee focuses on Worcester’s ownership
Michael Aylwin
Thu 24 Nov 2022 19.31 GMT
Last modified on Fri 25 Nov 2022 05.31 GMT
The Rugby Football Union was accused of “failure on an epic scale” as the recent collapses of Worcester Warriors and Wasps were subjected to parliamentary scrutiny on Thursday. Julian Knight, chair of the digital, culture, media and sport select committee, put it to Bill Sweeney, the governing body’s chief executive, that he should consider his future at the helm of the sport.
“If you look behind you,” Knight told Sweeney, who sat alongside representatives from Premier Rugby and the Rugby Players Association at the hearing, “you will see people from Worcester, and they’re furious at your failings. You have failed in this instance and so has the RFU. Should you not be looking at your own position?”
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Knight also said he would be referring the matter of Colin Goldring’s ownership of Worcester and Morecambe Football Club to the serious fraud office and John Campion, the police and crime commissioner for West Mercia. He told the hearing that Goldring is said to have falsified a claim to being a solicitor when he initially passed the English Football League’s directors test at a time when he was facing an investigation into his mishandling of €8m (£6.8m) of a client’s money. Goldring was subsequently disqualified in May by the Solicitors’ Regulation Authority, news of which came through in July, nearly three months before Worcester went into administration.
Much of the committee’s focus was centred on the fit-and-proper-persons test in rugby. Although Goldring and his partner, Jason Whittingham, were buying into Premier Rugby, it is the RFU that is responsible for performing the sport’s checks and balances. The implementation of a continuing fit-and-proper-persons test “seems fairly obvious”, Knight said, “when you have this sort of situation where someone has, frankly, asset-stripped one of your major clubs. We’ve seen these issues in other sports. Did it not occur to you to do this?”
Sweeney replied with a timeline of events, in which the imperative to save the club overtook the obvious questions about the owners. “They assured us that new financial measures were being explored,” said Sweeney of a meeting with Whittingham and Goldring in July. “We also share the frustration and somewhat anger that there were numerous missed deadlines, missed promises and guarantees.”
Knight spluttered his disbelief that Sweeney should be taking assurances from such people, but Simon Massie-Taylor, the chief executive of Premier Rugby, quietly mentioned at one point the part played by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, which loaned those same (in Sweeney’s words) “reprehensible characters” more than £15m of taxpayers money during the pandemic.
Sweeney also added: “One of the major learnings that will come out of this very sorry episode … is a binary one-off owners and directors test is not sufficient to prevent future bad behaviour or bad management. To have ongoing regular conditional reviews in terms of their performance and suitability is necessary.”
After being told he was “asleep on the job” by Knight, Sweeney highlighted that the RFU and Premiership Rugby were currently formalising terms for a new Professional Game Agreement (PGA) which would help safeguard the sport from further cases like Wasps and Worcester.
Another outstanding matter, as the administrators attempt to manoeuvre what is left of the club towards a successful sale, is the question of their shareholding in the Premiership, the all-important P-share. Carol Hart, chief executive of the Worcester Warriors Foundation, spoke movingly in the morning’s earlier session of the impact on the club’s collapse for the local community.
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She argued that the foundation’s work, which touches tens of thousands of people, would be put at risk without the P-share. Robin Walker, the local MP, praised the solidarity of other fans, even of other international unions, who offered their support, but argued that the real test would be whether Premier Rugby allows Worcester to retain their shareholding.
“I completely understand that some potential bidders want to retain that asset within the administration process,” said Massie-Taylor in response later. “I don’t think that sends a particularly strong message to the rest of our clubs – that you can go into administration and retain assets while getting rid of liabilities.”
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Over many years the view had been that more games means more money. All of a sudden it’s fewer games that will mean more money.
Last season the view was that a 14 team premiership was they forward. At the same time we’d seen significant defunding of the Championship. Now the view is that a 10 Premiership is what will work and that a vibrant championship will magically appear out of the RFU’s backside as a result of this.
In other words, neither the RFU nor the PRL has any strategy. Instead they offer up contradictory tactical solutions in short order. And, as is commonly known, tactics without strategy is the quickest way to defeat.
If these Chief Execs were heads of listed companies and performed like this in front of their institutional investors, I doubt they’d be long for this world.
I’ve a new strap line for the Rugby Football Union — we put the FU into RFU.
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English rugby bosses under fire over demise of Worcester and Wasps https://mol.im/a/11466555 via https://dailym.ai/android
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You’re spot on with your whole post Skippy. The change in strategy from 14 to 10 is just bewildering as much as it is clueless. It’s patently obvious that these people have just sat back in their ivory towers, taken the big wage and hoped it would just sort itself out. Which it hasn’t. You look back further and there are all sorts of incompetence. Sarries, botched tv rights deals, CVC??. What they can’t get through their skulls now is that this is not about being seen to be giving preferential treatment to us and Wuss. This is taking a long hard look to save the game. Rules no longer apply.
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The 14 to 10 clubs and reduction in matches a season makes zero sense unless the clubs, PRL and RFU think fans are willing to pay even higher ticket prices, but with attendances down pretty much across the league in recent years that just isn't going to happen, therefore they are taking the revenue from 4 home games off the clubs, that is a reduction in over 30% of their matchday revenue. With everyone losing money already, that is one of the most ridiculous ideas I have heard.
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To go all Liz the lettuce, they think 10 people will be eating a pie designed for 12 or 14, thus getting more pie.
The Pie is TV revenue, not bums on seats, and they think they can increase the value.
They are mistaken.
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The pie becomes bland when eaten every night. Eventually you just stop having pie.
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Last season the view was that a 14 team premiership was they forward.
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I beg to differ. The decision was made 5 minutes after Worcester went bust and it was looking grim for us.
There is no strategy, just reaction to events.
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The 14 to 10 clubs and reduction in matches a season makes zero sense unless the clubs, PRL and RFU think fans are willing to pay even higher ticket prices, but with attendances down pretty much across the league in recent years that just isn't going to happen, therefore they are taking the revenue from 4 home games off the clubs, that is a reduction in over 30% of their matchday revenue. With everyone losing money already, that is one of the most ridiculous ideas I have heard.
It's not as simple as saying it's a 30% reduction in income. Assuming fans inc STH pay the same (most STH I know and sit around tend to 'miss' 2-3 games per season anyway due to Holidays, Family Events, Internationals etc...) so likely to mean:
- If ST pricing remains flat that means an increase in ST revenue per game
- Reduction in squad sizes as fewer games and therefore lower attrition (esp with international breaks if they come in)
- Reduced salary cap supporting the above
- Reduction in opex/costs for running stadia per season
- Increase in avg attendance per game as people more willing to commit rather than avoid coming to games during internationals, or when international players are likely rested
I don't think the economics would be as bad as is being suggested on here and that there's a good chance they'll be more sound than at present. More people would be prepared to watch fewer more competitive games therefore increasing TV rights over time. More games just dilutes the whole competition. Currently, we have 9 weekends of the domestic season taken up by International games. Plus you have the rest periods bracketing those.
More games would mean:
- More mismatches where some players are rested vs other teams who have access to the full squad (i.e. Quins v Sarries which should have been a belter of a game but Sarries had full XV and Quins missing Smith)
- More ambivalence towards going as casual fans can't predict when they'll see the 'star' players
- Higher operating costs
- Higher salary costs are more players needed; either as injury dispensation or more players to be able to fulfill the higher number of games
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The MPs were told yesterday that by losing a Wasps and Worcester home game per season meant a reduction of income of £700k at today's costs. Not insignificant it was suggested to a league where every team was losing money.
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With respect I think there are lot of incorrect assumptions in there IBW. Could teams hold season ticket prices with 30% less games in the package? Would fans want a ST if, as you say, games are missed and you only start with 9 available? Would any TV provider want to pay for the rights to a fairly repetitive league where you would have to show the same teams a lot? Would squad sizes reduce due to a 10 team league - I can’t see why? Is there any guarantee the 10 team league won’t overlap with the internationals? Why would the games suddenly be more competitive? I’d argue if you’re say a LI fan you’re just more likely to get drummed every week. How does more games dilute the competition? Surely it’s the opposite if there are more possible scenarios/plot lines/outcomes. It’s all about opinion I know. For me a 10 team league kills the game at the elite level.
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Regarding reduction of clubs and therefore games, one of the committee said 'isn't that Kwarsi Kwartang thinking' i.e. reduce things for supposed growth. We know what that lead to.
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The cost of debt and equity are rising for everyone. For rugby clubs with significant debt (most of them) it mean a face a massive increase in debt interest payments and will find it much harder to attract investors/sugar daddies. And, in all honesty, given the piss poor performance on show at the select committee yesterday, I’d be slapping a moron premium on any debt asked for by a rugby club.
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All arguments for & against have counter arguments. If it was easy, we wont be in this mess
I am still watching games regularly on TV & I am already finding it tedious watching some of the same teams 3 weeks in row. Part of it is that without Wasps I have no personal involvement but equally, as a neutral, I don't want to watch Exeter playing every week. I can't believe I am the only one
If I was BT Sports, or A. n. Other broadcaster, I would not expect to pay the same amount for a 10 league as I would for a 13 team one.
Even if squads are the same size, there will be less squads so player wages will be forced down, which could means more players looking overseas, & overseas players not wanted to come here, further devaluing the competition.
If even Exeter, which we keep getting told is so well run, need to sell some of the family silver to get by, there must need to be a clear way for clubs to make more money, not just bumble along as they are, because we already know that's not sustainable. Blaming dodgy owners or gambles on bonds & club moves doesn't alter the fact that there just isn't enough money for clubs to continue as they are
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More of the same -
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/asleep-on-the-job-english-rugby-chiefs-torn-to-shreds-by-mps/
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The change of plan from a 14 team solution to a 10 team solution is easily explained.
Sarries got relegated then the pandemic struck. In any other season there would have been no promotion or relegation between the Premiership and Championship as neither was able to play out a complete season and teams' fates may have been decided by arbitrarily awarded points for cancelled games. Because it was Sarries, that was unthinkable, and they had to be dragged back into the Prem pronto, leaving us stuck with an imperfect 13 team league. The easiest way to restore it to an even number without upsetting anyone was to scrap relegation and bring one up from the Championship to make it 14. Nothing to do with Economic sustainability, just the easiest way out of a hole they had dug themselves into by insisting on having Sarries come straight back up.
Fast forward 18 months, and 2 of those 13 go to the wall leaving them with 11. Those that are left start getting twitchy, so quick U turn and suddenly 10 teams is the solution.
Neither was ever a decision reached after due consideration, research and serious economic modelling. Just knee-jerk reactions to sudden changes of circumstances.
As for the RFU/PRL using the economic strain of the pandemic in their own defence, but being unwilling to acknowledge that the pandemic itself fulfills one of their own criteria for exceptional circumstances in the event of a club falling into administration... You couldn't make it up. One rule for them...
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Personally I think all this 'fans want to see the players' line is total and utter bullshit. I have never once decided against a game because our England players were away. I don't know anyone who has.
Many here enjoy watching new youngsters as much as established greats.
It is annoying when rules are not clear or fairly applied, as happens with England releases, of course, but people won't turn up in greater numbers because Joe, West and Dobby are playing. They may turn up in greater numbers because there are a number of star players playing scintillating rugby - a la Wasps 2016 to 17- winning 45 35 puts bums on seats. That is about it in terms of audience.
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Personally I think all this 'fans want to see the players' line is total and utter bullshit. I have never once decided against a game because our England players were away. I don't know anyone who has.
Many here enjoy watching new youngsters as much as established greats.
It is annoying when rules are not clear or fairly applied, as happens with England releases, of course, but people won't turn up in greater numbers because Joe, West and Dobby are playing. They may turn up in greater numbers because there are a number of star players playing scintillating rugby - a la Wasps 2016 to 17- winning 45 35 puts bums on seats. That is about it in terms of audience.
Agree 100%. One of my favourite memories was watching Jack run out for the first time in an otherwise not very memorable win at the start of the season.
Admittedly I did have to ask his mates who were sat behind me and my kids to stop swearing...
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I think that depends on who the fan is.
Those that have season tickets, or frequent forums specifically about wasps (i.e. us) will be happy seeing youngsters, wider squad players, new signings etc.
New fans that we may be wanting to welcome to wasps will want to see Joe launchbury, Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary etc.
I can understand the argument that having your best players playing for clubs more often might help grow the game.
Whereas squad players and academy players will just keep the status quo
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I tend to agree with this. Most people go to see Wasps not an individual in my opinion. Let’s be honest it’s a moot point - none of the best players are picked by Eddie anyway ;)
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I didn’t realise the Premiership was back in play until I saw the results tonight. So I had a glance at the table and it makes for an embarrassingly dull and uninteresting ‘competition’ - I don’t know what PRL and the RFU are trying to ‘protect’ other than the EA’s interests, but the English domestic game is well and truly finished as attractive and viable. One team and the 10 cannon fodder to wipe their feet on as they go to pick up another title.
Feels like the only interest amongst the CEOs of the RFU, PRL and EA’s is self interest and sod their responsibility to the wider game. As for Baxter and Chiefs they need to be wary that with their increasing mid table mediocrity they won’t have such a powerful voice, especially with Sweeney and Mr double-barrelled so sweet on Sarries.
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Plus 1, Andy.
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+2
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+3 Andy
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Personally I think all this 'fans want to see the players' line is total and utter bullshit. I have never once decided against a game because our England players were away. I don't know anyone who has.
Many here enjoy watching new youngsters as much as established greats.
It is annoying when rules are not clear or fairly applied, as happens with England releases, of course, but people won't turn up in greater numbers because Joe, West and Dobby are playing. They may turn up in greater numbers because there are a number of star players playing scintillating rugby - a la Wasps 2016 to 17- winning 45 35 puts bums on seats. That is about it in terms of audience.
I'll add that most club fans are really happy for their players who get selected for their country and wish them well. Although that has been tempered somewhat for England selections by the way some players have been treated.
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Andy - you made me look at the league table on the Beeb. Not something I have done since wasps went. Jeez the double cheats (EAs) are streets ahead of everyone. If that doesn't point to the imbeciles that something is very very wrong then they need to give Eddie an extended 10 year contract.
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Crikey, I hadn’t realised that either in terms of the prem games. Did the same and looked at the table. Overall sentiment - uninteresting/predictable. As a lover of the game I don’t want to see it in a state of farce which it is right now. Apart from the table and parties like BT having to feign excitement at screening the same teams every week there is something really smelly about all the salary cap bleating pre Wuss and Wasps failures and the subsequent hoovering up of loads of their players. Either they were lying about the cap being too tight, are trading over the cap or have offered players pittances.
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. Either they were lying about the cap being too tight, are trading over the cap or have offered players pittances.
All three?
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. Either they were lying about the cap being too tight, are trading over the cap or have offered players pittances.
All three?
+1
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+2.
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Your post, Andy, prompted me to have a look at the table. Absolutely no excitement. It's not yet Xmas and, with no relegation, it's an empty shell. Footfall and income will definitely be down and as for next season..............?
A quick question: does anyone know if the same number of English clubs will qualify for ECC next season?
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Your post, Andy, prompted me to have a look at the table. Absolutely no excitement. It's not yet Xmas and, with no relegation, it's an empty shell. Footfall and income will definitely be down and as for next season..............?
A quick question: does anyone know if the same number of English clubs will qualify for ECC next season?
European Rugby have not commented on next seasons qualification yet. All they have done so far is adjust for teams missing this season.
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Wot a smelly mess. Completely agree re: The cap etc, Shugs.
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I would like someone - anyone! - to enquire much more deeply and with authority into the actions of the RFU etc, and the finances of other clubs. Too much to ask.
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After the above discussion, I decided to look at the table. But when I got there, I realised I wasn’t interested, I didn’t care and I wasn’t taking any of it in.
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Stupidly expected Rugby Tonight to lead with this but hey apologists all especially the number Ugo.
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Stupidly expected Rugby Tonight to lead with this but hey apologists all especially the number Ugo.
Didn't catch it today, what did they all say?
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Stupidly expected Rugby Tonight to lead with this but hey apologists all especially the number Ugo.
In sport, and media in general, there is nowadays too cozy a relationship between journalists and those that should be held to account. For me, this cheapens the quality. To the extent that, mainstream news is now pointless to listen to or watch. This is not good for society, because people then retreat to sources that can become bubbles of self-perpetuation of views and myths.
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Stupidly expected Rugby Tonight to lead with this but hey apologists all especially the number Ugo.
In sport, and media in general, there is nowadays too cozy a relationship between journalists and those that should be held to account. For me, this cheapens the quality. To the extent that, mainstream news is not pointless to listen to or watch. This is not good for society, because people then retreat to sources that can become bubbles of self-perpetuation of views and myths.
+1
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It used to be the case that political news reported what had happened, with or without commentary/analysis. These days it is full of reporting what is going to happen. How many stories in the broadsheets are now "In a speech later today he is expected to say ...." and then a pre-leaked transcript is published.
Makes it very hard to be objectively critical if you rely on the subject you're reporting on for the pre-supply of material. Society is worse off as a result.