Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: mike909 on June 30, 2022, 08:39:56 AM
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https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-team-named-for-first-australia-test?utm_source=CRM220630ESAusTourPreMatch1Main&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CRM220630ESAusTourPreMatch1Main&utm_content=Summer%20Tour&spMailingID=20028783&spUserID=Njc0OTkwNzI0OTEzS0&spJobID=2017353219&spReportId=MjAxNzM1MzIxOQS2
No surprises in the starting 15 - I'd guess four starters away from a 6Ns team, a team that was lacklustre and failed to score. A lot depending upon Billy and Joe ball in hand and still no real pace selected. Looks like a back three (well Nowell and Steward) aimed at an aerial battle - and a lot on Farrell in terms of organisation.
If we're not solid at set piece and good at kicking for territory - it could be a long game....
15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell
13. Joe Marchant
12. Owen Farrell
11. Joe Cokanasiga
10. Marcus Smith
9. Danny Care
1. Ellis Genge
2. Jamie George
3. Will Stuart
4. Maro Itoje
5. Jonny Hill
6. Courtney Lawes (C)
7. Tom Curry
8. Billy Vunipola
Finishers
16. Luke Cowan-Dickie
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Joe Heyes
19. Ollie Chessum
20. Lewis Ludlam
21. Jack van Poortlviet
22. Guy Porter
23. Henry Arundell
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Interesting Arundell is in there ahead of Freeman.
Really not sure why Porter is in there other than as a troll selection if he ever was actually available to play for Aus. Solid enough player and great versatility but is he really the first choice option we have on the 22 shirt in England.
Will be interesting to see how much freedom Care and Smith are allowed inside Farrell. Also still hoping I’ll get to see an actual 6 play for England again one day (in the 6 shirt, might I add)
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Porter definitely qualified for Australia - he's lived there longer than the UK, but he is British as he was born here. But those back replacements don't inspire much confidence. As you say JD I'm not sure Porter is even outstanding Prem quality, let alone international.
Worrying at tighthead I think. And that back row is poor. No Jack, when he was the only player to really show anything against the BaaBaas, is stupid given Australia will be throwing Hooper into everything.
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Agree with all that.
It appears a backrow picked for power and not competing at the tackle area. I'd love to see a 6 at 6 too.....if they get momentum and move us around, it could be a hard one...
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Agree with all of the above. A back three of Cockanasinga, Steward and Nowell - jeez that lacks pace. Lawes at 6. Why, just why. And Stuart has just spent a whole season being shoved backwards at TH. Australia aren’t too hot so we might get away with it.
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Seen a lot of posts online talking about Lawes playing 6 and being out of position.
Begs the question how long do you need to play in a new position before it becomes your specialism- lawes has barely got any game time at lock for years. Not just for england, but also for saints, where he starts week in week out as specialist 6. He started all 3 tests for the lions last year at 6. At what point would picking him at lock actually be the out of position selection?
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Same old same old. Let's see if doing the same thing gives a different result this time.
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Despite the shortcomings mentioned above, there are a few positives as well, which is more than I've been able to say of an Eddie selection for quite some time.
OK, Cockanasiga not the quickest, but he is at least a specialist winger. Eddie's usual MO is to stick a centre there.
Finally we have a chance to see what Care and Smith can do together for England, and hopefully get the chance to play their way rather than having things dictated by Farrell.
Lawes an infinitely better choice as captain than Farrell.
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So after looking to build for the future and moving on, Eddie does what we all knew he would as the side goes backward to begin resembling the same one that lost the last world cup. Will Smith hang onto the 10 shirt? How long until Youngs is back at 9? What a waste of four years.
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So after looking to build for the future and moving on, Eddie does what we all knew he would as the side goes backward to begin resembling the same one that lost the last world cup. Will Smith hang onto the 10 shirt? How long until Youngs is back at 9? What a waste of four years.
Depressingly true, Andy.
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With the injuries we have, I’m not disappointed with the players he’s selected.
We don’t really have many 12’s to pick from…so Farrell was always going to start and interested to see how Porter gets on.
Arundell and JVP are exciting players, that could cause a whole host of problems as legs tire and the game breaks up in the last 20 minutes.
As for the starters, we always knew Eddie was going to put heavyweights in to try outmuscle and overpower any early Aussie momentum.
If they do their job, then spaces will develop in the second half of the game.
We haven’t seen how everyone has been training….so I’m going to hold off judgement until after the first game.
But it feels like they might be preparing for a game of thirds.
1) Parity, muscle and field position. Take any penalties.
2) Ascendancy and starting to use Smith to find to find holes as legs and minds tire a little.
3) Up the pace and punch through holes that start appear in the final 20 minutes. Score tries to take the game away.
I’m actually looking forward to the game.
But I’m not sure what my expectations for the Tour are at the moment.
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Wallabies: Banks; Kellaway, Ikitau, Kerevi, Koroibete; Cooper, White; Bell, Porecki, Alaalatoa, Swain, Neville, Leota, Hooper (capt), Valetini.
Replacements: Fainga'a, Sio, Slipper, Philip, Samu, Gordon, Lolesio, Petaia.
Is their Leota any relative?
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The match is winnable. The past two years have been a dumpster fire, but this is winnable. It won't be pretty, it won't move us forward, but it is winnable. If we lose we move further back.
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What VV said. First words that came into my head. Same old same old.
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Seen a lot of posts online talking about Lawes playing 6 and being out of position.
Begs the question how long do you need to play in a new position before it becomes your specialism- lawes has barely got any game time at lock for years. Not just for england, but also for saints, where he starts week in week out as specialist 6. He started all 3 tests for the lions last year at 6. At what point would picking him at lock actually be the out of position selection?
If you didn't play in a position when your were 12 years old, you'll always be seen as out of position
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Arundell and JVP are exciting players, that could cause a whole host of problems as legs tire and the game breaks up in the last 20 minutes.
I fear that tiring legs aren't a thing for tier 1 Nations.
With 7 replacements to bring on, and state of the art tracking and real time player statistics, it's easy for a coach to see tiring legs and replace the player before it starts to adversly affect their performance.
A tier 1 nation has enough players of international quality to replace their entire team and not really weaken themselves.
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I've seen comment elsewhere that picks like Arundel are "developing" players. This is a player with TWO Prem starts and 5 bench appearances.....This is less time than George Martin had before coming off the bench vs Ireland in 2021.
Like the Saints coach - I do think players benefit from experience. Even stars like Maro had loads of Prem experience and had started a Euro Semi before England called. Any injury and he could be FB after 5mins...It might be that I am over cautious - but it seems a risk both for the player and England.
As for the selection - it is as others say the same old - but given those in the squad - it's the starting 15 that I'd expect - but it's still mainly the lacklustre 6Ns team plus Farrell and Billy.
It's easily winnable - part of me thinks that losing might concentrate minds on reality rather than an alleged fantasy "journey" we're told England are on.
So England by 30 then....
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Same old same old
but out of the starting 15:
Freddie Steward
Joe Marchant
Joe Cokanasiga
Marcus Smith
are hardly seasoned Internationals are they?
& that bench without Mako & LCD is very green!!
I don't agree with some of his choices but I can't see how he can be criticised for picking the "Same old same old" and at the same time for picking new uncapped players?
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I've seen comment elsewhere that picks like Arundel are "developing" players. This is a player with TWO Prem starts and 5 bench appearances.....This is less time than George Martin had before coming off the bench vs Ireland in 2021.
Like the Saints coach - I do think players benefit from experience. Even stars like Maro had loads of Prem experience and had started a Euro Semi before England called. Any injury and he could be FB after 5mins...It might be that I am over cautious - but it seems a risk both for the player and England.
As for the selection - it is as others say the same old - but given those in the squad - it's the starting 15 that I'd expect - but it's still mainly the lacklustre 6Ns team plus Farrell and Billy.
It's easily winnable - part of me thinks that losing might concentrate minds on reality rather than an alleged fantasy "journey" we're told England are on.
So England by 30 then....
Guess the risk is he either takes to it like a natural or has a bit of a Mathew Tait experience.
I think it's too soon, to be honest. In the Prem Cup final he started against Worcester and made a whole host of mistakes. Undoubtedly talented, but no need to throw him in so soon.
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I've seen comment elsewhere that picks like Arundel are "developing" players. This is a player with TWO Prem starts and 5 bench appearances.....This is less time than George Martin had before coming off the bench vs Ireland in 2021.
Like the Saints coach - I do think players benefit from experience. Even stars like Maro had loads of Prem experience and had started a Euro Semi before England called. Any injury and he could be FB after 5mins...It might be that I am over cautious - but it seems a risk both for the player and England.
As for the selection - it is as others say the same old - but given those in the squad - it's the starting 15 that I'd expect - but it's still mainly the lacklustre 6Ns team plus Farrell and Billy.
It's easily winnable - part of me thinks that losing might concentrate minds on reality rather than an alleged fantasy "journey" we're told England are on.
So England by 30 then....
Guess the risk is he either takes to it like a natural or has a bit of a Mathew Tait experience.
I think it's too soon, to be honest. In the Prem Cup final he started against Worcester and made a whole host of mistakes. Undoubtedly talented, but no need to throw him in so soon.
Stepping up a level means those mistakes have a high probability of being severely punished. He’ll also have a lot less time before defences hit him.
If this was the start of the WC cycle I’d see it as a good move, but do we really see him as WC material? I suppose we’ll find out in the next few weeks.
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Tere are times when Jones makes me think of a drowning man grabbing at straws.
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I agree with the above re WC cycles - he looks like a decent pick for 2027 - but with two Prem starts, ever, it's hard to see what he offers for RWC 23 above the FB from Saints in the BaaBaas game. Freeman has started 23 Prem games and a Euro game and scored 13 tries this season in the Prem. To me - that's a flier....
I don't think the "ducks to water" analogy is demonstrated in reality - or so rarely in recent times as to be unlikely a factor. I think George North was the nearest - and he's had his first class starts restricted by injury but was still more experienced than Arundel and only covering wing...And - the game really has changed in 12 years.
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How is the game being broadcast, please?
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Jones selection follows a distinct pattern. He tends to pick a core of predictable hardened internationals and couples them with those who have hardly played. He largely ignores the players who are tearing it up domestically. I’m not sure why. He does pick if someone has a “unique” ability. He picked Odogwu from nowhere due to his ability to bust the line. Arundell is picked as he can score from nowhere. For me that doesn’t make an international. Arundell, for me, has absolutely miles to go before playing at international level.
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How is the game being broadcast, please?
Sky sports just before 11:00
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Well, I’m looking forward to the game.
It sounds like Eddie Jones is allowing Martin Gleeson some room to impose an improved style of attack.
I actually like Martin when he was at Wasps….and I think the players did too.
Marcus Smith has only just started his international career…and I get excited watching him, in the way I used to with Cips.
The BaBa game was concerning, but this team looks much better balanced.
I’m going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt (as none of us have watched how the squad have trained recently).
Let’s see where we all are by the 70th minute.
And then at the final whistle.
I don’t like Eddie Jones….but I do like quite a lot of the players in that squad.
Australia are improving their setup at long last, but we don’t really know what type of team they are right now.
Lots of unknowns, so plenty to feast the eyes on.
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How is the game being broadcast, please?
Sky sports just before 11:00
Under normal circumstances I’d get A day or maybe month sub on Now TV and then watch some of the cricket as well.
Despite Hopwood’s optimism ☝️I can’t bring myself to get enthusiastic. That said, the wife’s out tomorrow morning so I’ll probably crack and then spend the rest of the day kicking myself.
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How is the game being broadcast, please?
Sky sports just before 11:00
Under normal circumstances I’d get A day or maybe month sub on Now TV and then watch some of the cricket as well.
Despite Hopwood’s optimism ☝️I can’t bring myself to get enthusiastic. That said, the wife’s out tomorrow morning so I’ll probably crack and then spend the rest of the day kicking myself.
Hey Mr Dorset
Here’s the other rugby on tomorrow, just so you get all bang for your buck.
And obviously cricket too. Could be good England batting tomorrow.
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sport/rugby-union/summer-internationals-rugby-2022-tv/
Saturday 2nd July 2022
Japan v France (7am) Premier Sports 1
New Zealand v Ireland (8:05am) Sky Sports Action / Main Event
Australia v England (10:55am) Sky Sports Action / Main Event
South Africa v Wales (4:05pm) Sky Sports Action / Main Event
Argentina v Scotland (8:10pm) Sky Sports Action / Main Event
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I think sometimes, we have to check our own bias.
There’s been plenty on here (including me) relentlessly criticising Jones for not selecting fast and exciting players.
For playing too conservatively.
Well now that he is starting to pick those types of player, people seem to be upset before they’ve even seen them play.
If we really do have something special (eg Arundell) surely a summer tour game is the perfect time to find out if he can make the grade in very quick time?
If Jones took him to Australia and then didn’t play him…he would be criticised by just as many people.
I’m withholding judgement. Some people on here would prefer to be proved right rather than potentially watch a new chapter evolve.
Knowing the way Jones obsessively thinks…he might well have had a quick tête-à-tête with Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes to understand how freedom of expression and creativity has allowed English cricket to step up another level in a matter of weeks.
Eddie Jones can’t ignore what’s happening in cricket.
Better lessons there than from Southgate!! So let’s hope Eddie is getting the message.
From The Times
Try wizardry in training earns Henry Arundell a spot on the England bench
Henry Arundell secured his place on England’s bench for the opening Test against Australia by scoring a 90-metre wonder-try in training.
The 19-year-old London Irish full back ran strongly for a solo try from almost his own goalline against Toulon in April during the European Challenge Cup knockout match, an effort that became a viral sensation.
And it was a similar effort in front of Eddie Jones that convinced the head coach to put his “apprentice” into the match-day 23 for Saturday’s first Test.
This is Arundell’s first season as a professional and he has played only 14 senior matches for Irish, scoring seven tries. Jones was given a first-hand taste this week of just why the teenager was named the Gallagher Premiership discovery of the season.
“He’s just scored a try [in training on Wednesday] not many other players in the world would have scored,” Jones said. “It was like a try Bryan Habana used to score — one of those.
“He’s got exceptional pace and if he gets an opportunity against Australia we’re sure he’ll be able to show that pace.”
Jonny Hill, the second-row forward who starts on Saturday, was amazed by the Arundell try. “I was stood in the other 22,” he said.
“It was crazy. I asked him this morning what [speed] he thought he [ran], percentage-wise, and he said 85-90.
“He rounded a couple of lads. I think it was some back-three lads. It was very impressive — he’s a proper rock star, isn’t he? I’m sure he’s going to have a big future.
“The Aussies will have seen that [Toulon] try he scored. Everyone did.”
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Fair enough - but.....my criticism of Jones' selections, in the 6Ns was that without the usual fliers - he didn't even look to pick people like Radwan etc - and it showed. England were blunt.
That he's picked someone who's a star in training is fine in itself, but it doesn't demonstrate a sudden revelation by Jones. He's a player who's played very few games and none with any real pressure. I'm sure Wade might have been an example of such a player - but experienced too....and a record try scorer who wasn't considered by Jones.
But Arundel whilst having all the tools - hasn't played much for LI - he's only started two Prem games. The games with any pressure and could be FB in the first minute....He might do brilliantly - but his selection not a get out clause - well not for me - from Jones' continuing range of bizarre selections. Something he didn't impose on Smith or Steward - both had plenty of Prem time and tests vs Canada and USA before anything like a serious test.
It would be great if he went well - but Saints coach - who's forgotten masses more than I will ever know about rugby was specific about England picking players too soon and causing harm. I'd really prefer not to be proven right on such a matter.
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Another article from The Times, this time on Lawes challenging the way things have been previously done by Jones/Farrell.
Let’s hope the penny is finally beginning to drop.
Let’s hope senior players like Lawes have spoken out and demanded a change of atmosphere in the camp.
A change of cliques and hierarchy.
Most on here have already condemned this Tour.
I’m withholding judgement for a game…or two.
If there is a change in direction in camp….then it’ll be seen out on the pitch over the next 3 games.
Times Article:
It is a role Lawes never actively sought but cherishes, and he believes Jones selecting him as captain reveals how the coach and the team have changed. Under Lawes’ recent leadership he and prop Ellis Genge have actively tried to make the England set-up a more relaxing and welcoming environment, and they have asked Jones and his coaches to pressurise them less. They believed in previous years under Jones that England were too tense, and he demanded too much of them.
But Lawes, who will start at blind-side flanker in the first Test, noted how that has altered since the last series in Australia in 2016, when England won 3-0.
“I certainly wouldn’t be skipper if he [Jones] was still the same coming into this tour,” Lawes said. “We’ve made a lot of changes and we think they’ll be for the better.
“We’re trying to find that balance between what we had then in 2016, which was massive but was hard to maintain, and what we had in 2019 when we got to the final of the World Cup. We want to find that sweet spot.
“Eddie wants to challenge himself. If I’m honest, I’m probably skipper because I think more differently to him and I’m willing to challenge him as a leader. I think that’s why he’s kept me on. I’ve made a lot of the lads comfortable around the team and that’s the team environment we want.
“I’m more than willing to essentially get a feel of what the team needs, and then the coaches will have a feeling for what the team needs, and then we’ll come to a compromise from there, instead of it all being one way in terms of we just do what the coaches say.
“The game’s developing and the leadership team and the coaching team with Eddie think that’s the best way to be. I wasn’t in the leadership team in 2016 or until 2020 really, although I had the experience. I just got the opportunity to step up. Eddie was changing his thinking; he changed his leadership team and I was in it. I took the opportunity.
“I’m an old geezer now and don’t mind saying what’s on my mind. I think he liked that approach.”
Lawes has had no problems with Farrell, who Jones revealed was “very unhappy” to lose the captaincy.
“I’ve been working very closely with Owen,” he added. “That first conversation was absolutely fine, as I knew it would be. If I’m honest, I expected him to get the role back and I was more than willing to because we work so well together.
“We’re almost polar opposite but in a good way. We find a pretty good balance and we’ll be keeping that; it’s just that I keep the armband this time and we’ll see what happens going forward.”
On the opening Test against Australia, Lawes said: “We’re confident going into the game tomorrow. We’ve got a great team out and had a very good training week. We’re not looking for anything less than a win.
“I don’t think you can underestimate how much it means for the Australia team to play here and win.
“We know it will be one hell of a contest.”
England’s record against Australia under Jones presently stands at 8-0, and lock Jonny Hill hopes the Wallabies have a mental burden to overcome as a result.
“‘For us, it’s about starting fast and it’s only going to be in their heads, not ours,” said Hill, who partners Maro Itoje at lock. “If we start fast, they might start thinking, ‘No 9 is on the way’.”
Australia captain Michael Hooper is desperate for his Wallabies to right the wrongs of their recent run against England.
“History has not been in favour for quite some time against the English for some years now and we are dead keen to rip in now,” the open-side flanker said.
“It is motivation to win and turn the ledger. We have got three games at home to do it while we play these fellows like this.
“It is a top rivalry. Having the Ashes at the back end of last year and the start of this year, the whole of the Australian population gets around it whether they are here or over in England. It is bragging rights, big for the fans and big for us. It is a big occasion for both teams, there is a bit of history and two teams rolling into a World Cup next year, that’s exciting.
“I don’t think there are too many guys in our team that were there in 2016 but if they weren’t I am sure they were watching that with a keen eye, wanting to be part of it. Now we get our opportunity six years later, we have just got to go out there and do it.
“We know in games of this sort of magnitude and the intensity of the games it is going to go back and forth a bit and we have just got to stay in the fight, throw punches and absorb and get back on the front foot and keep applying pressure on these guys.”
Australia v England
First Test
Saturday, kick-off: 10.55am
TV: Sky Sports Main Event
I hope some readers are grateful for the posting of these kind of articles.
They always take a bit of time to copy/paste/edit out the Getty photos etc.
If people aren’t bothered, then I won’t waste my time.
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I agree with Chris Boyd.
But I do think Arundel is a bit special.
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I’m with you backdoc - Boyd was spot on for me. And it would be interesting if Arundell had played say 10-15 Prem games and was tearing it up to see whether he’d be picked. I suspect not. I still can’t convince myself - and I may be 100% wrong - that Jones picks to either 1) prove the press wrong about him retaining people or 2) Picks “flyers” to frank his genius. I agree Arundell looks a fantastic prospect but he simply can’t be international class so soon into his career.
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I like Lawes and I wish him every success in making England a better and more enjoyable team to watch.
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I’m with you backdoc - Boyd was spot on for me. And it would be interesting if Arundell had played say 10-15 Prem games and was tearing it up to see whether he’d be picked. I suspect not. I still can’t convince myself - and I may be 100% wrong - that Jones picks to either 1) prove the press wrong about him retaining people or 2) Picks “flyers” to frank his genius. I agree Arundell looks a fantastic prospect but he simply can’t be international class so soon into his career.
+1
Other recent fast trackers like Smith had started over 50 Prem games (and 8 or so Euro Cup games) for Quins before playing vs USA and Canada. Arundel has all the tools - but has started two Prem games, ever. He might have a flier, but as for his future and progress - I'd wonder how this can be the best way.
It would be very interesting of he'd started 15 Prem games including vs the big names (EA's, Cheetahs, Glaws etc) and had shown good decision making and ability to defend and coordinate with the team.
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Hopwood,
Well, I appreciate the time you take to post the newspaper articles. Thank you.
On the England "team" - or should that be a random selection of EQP players Jones has drawn out of a hat - I don't hold out much hope.
For me, the sooner the RFU throw Jones out, the better.
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FOMO got the better of me and I signed up to Now TV sports for a month. As always they make it a continuing subscription and you have to spend 10 minutes figuring out how to cancel the next payment. At least it can be done online.
Let's hope I'm not regretting at 1pm.
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I hope some readers are grateful for the posting of these kind of articles.
They always take a bit of time to copy/paste/edit out the Getty photos etc.
If people aren’t bothered, then I won’t waste my time.
[/quote]
Very grateful, thanks for posting.
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Nice to see England have fully adopted the EA screaming theatrics. Good to see ref tell No 4 to shut up.
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Great read, thanks for posting. Will be interesting to see how the team dynamic affects performance on the pitch
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10 minutes in and Itoje is acting like a 10 year old, roaring in the lineout and the usual whooping for a minor turnover.
FEC? I don't think so.
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And bloody Hill pulling hair?
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Red?
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Getting pinged on the ground in the ruck.....NZ ref...
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Two rusty sides, looking to find continuity.
I never judge a game on a first half score…because you know the hard graft in the first forty will have had an effect on opposition mindset and fitness.
I’m curious as to what England look like in the 70th minute, having applied serious pressure in the first forty.
As I said previously, I think it’s a game of 3 thirds.
Parity and exploration in the first third.
All sorts going on in the first part of the 2nd third, as Australia try to claw their way back.
The ten minutes after half time will then setup the final third, where I expect England to start finding some pace, freedom, form and tries.
Well…I hope so.
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By the time England meet New Zealand in the Autumn, I think Marcus Smith will be fully integrated into this English side.
We’ve got to expect speed bumps on the way.
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Well played England.
Genge…very good.
Bit like a good Wasps rolling maul :D
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Australia making early changes to try and stay in the game.
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Joe C not offensive enough in defence.
But collectively poor in defence.
Try Australia.
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If Eddie has huge balls, he puts on the youngsters.
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Joe C not offensive enough in defence.
But collectively poor in defence.
Try Australia.
My thoughts too. Lots of fancy pull backs by England but not going anywhere. One decent Aussie chance and a nice score....Not seeing anything stand out yet.....
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Joe C not offensive enough in defence.
But collectively poor in defence.
Try Australia.
My thoughts too. Lots of fancy pull backs by England but not going anywhere. One decent Aussie chance and a nice score....Not seeing anything stand out yet.....
I'd like to see the ruck speed stats, my impression is much quicker than in resent past.
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Another try - Aussies ball in hand looking direct and effective....Long way back....
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Cowan Dickie was shocking in that.
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Don’t agree with that penalty.
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Aussie scrum penalty - Wasps would deal with that scrum better.......
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How has Stuart been doing in the scrum?
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Oh dear....all the fears of this fan coming true....
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Oh dear....all the fears of this fan coming true....
Okay Mike. You’ve made your point.
I agree with your pre-match trepidation.
I still think England have enough class to come back and win this series.
Jeez. Henry scores. Wow.
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I think I might have to eat my words about Arundel earlier in the thread.
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I think I might have to eat my words about Arundel earlier in the thread.
Seems duck to water then....Hands up!
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I think I might have to eat my words about Arundel earlier in the thread.
I told you so.......!!!
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We score again. But we need the speed we have at the end all game through. Cokanasiga is not the answer to any questions England want to ask.
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As the commentator said - a little gloss on a game lost to 14 men - which England would have expected to win 30 mins to go...
Not good enough - anyone thinking the last couple of mins shows it's just rust or anything is imo wrong.
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SH whitewash today methinks.
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I think I might have to eat my words about Arundel earlier in the thread.
I told you so.......!!!
Woh, woh.
I’m the first person to have said Arundell was the real deal.
I said it in the hour before the Irish v Wasps game.
I’ve been following him for the last 2 years.
I keep in regular contact with him.
I’ve been saying all season that this guy is something different.
I’m only annoyed Eddie didn’t have the big balls to put him in the 60-65th minute.
Come on. I’ve been the Arundell fan club for months.
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I suppose Jones will take some degree of comfort from the two late tries. But they were both scored by fresh legs coming on against tired 14 men.
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As the commentator said - a little gloss on a game lost to 14 men - which England would have expected to win 30 mins to go...
Not good enough - anyone thinking the last couple of mins shows it's just rust or anything is imo wrong.
It doesn't excuse the performance, but England were only a man up for 30 minutes due to the two yellow cards.
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Whatever Eddie said at half time obviously didn't work, again, it even had a negative effect on the team. So much for the great guru.
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1st May 2022
Hours before Irish v Wasps.
Hopwood quote….
Young Harry Arundell, Irish No 23 and their replacement 15, has got a real set of wheels.
Genuine pace and a very exciting prospect.
[/b]
He then won the game against us in the final 15 minutes.
So many people on this site saying that players with little experience shouldn’t be playing yet.
Not how I see it.
Don’t care what Boyd says.
Henry is a talent. Nurture him.
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Still not sure what we’re trying to do. Starting back three of Steward, Nowell and Cockanasinga just doesn’t have enough pace. Make your tackles on those three and your safe. Surely Lawes has to play lock and we bring in a real six. Too many penalties and worryingly scrum time wasn’t great either.
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Right.
From what’s coming out of the press recently, Eddie Jones is starting to change his ways.
About as quickly as a tanker turning in the Solent.
But at least changing.
I think we have the players, but just not the mindset or expression of freedom yet.
Being in the business I am, I really think Eddie Jones wants to be speaking to the English cricket management.
These players are talented.
But they need to be let off the leash.
I’m still withholding judgement until after the 2nd Test.
I don’t think defensively we were tight enough.
But, I do think there’s a spark in there.
A group of players that need to be set free.
I don’t think things are terminal.
Farrell missed a lot of points.
If Eddie can soften up a bit in attack…and tighten up in defence…then we can move up a few notches.
For me…it’s not the end of the world, just yet.
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1st May 2022
Hours before Irish v Wasps.
Hopwood quote….
Young Harry Arundell, Irish No 23 and their replacement 15, has got a real set of wheels.
Genuine pace and a very exciting prospect.
[/b]
He then won the game against us in the final 15 minutes.
So many people on this site saying that players with little experience shouldn’t be playing yet.
Not how I see it.
Don’t care what Boyd says.
Henry is a talent. Nurture him.
Not being funny - but isn't what we're saying here exactly what LI are doing? He has only started 2 Prem games. He's been allowed to come on an try it on, later in a number of games. LI are nurturing him, by not over playing him or asking too much too soon
He's come on and scored a great try late in a game that's gone. That's great for him - the concern about experience is about the rest of chores all players need to do and how he's going to do there. It could be that he is the exception and good luck to the lad. But given how LI have used him - I'd guess they are keen he's not over extended too soon as well.
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In terms of Arundell his late tries change nothing for me. We’ve still no idea if he’s good enough or not. Australia had the game won when he came on. I’m not saying he isn’t a talent. But the game is chock full of players who make an eye catching contribution when the games done but struggle if put in. That said I’ve no idea what Jones was doing picking Nowell and Cockanasinga so he may as well have a shot on the wing. I don’t think there is any sort of team waiting to blossom unfortunately. Jones selection is all over the place. He’s been exposed as having zero strategy in terms of team development and he changes his coaching team every Tuesday. The results speak for themselves.
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The youngsters thing is a red herring.
The match was blown, everything was in England's favour, it was a total balls up. Our plan was to grind, grind, grind. We should have been 15 up with as many to play given territory.
You cannot shut Australua out for 80, we need to find more, defense did not let England down, attack did.
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defense did not let England down, attack did.
+1
As said up thread, lots of quick ball but it mostly led to lots pretty running lines behind the gain line. I’m a Smith fan, but he did run in to contact a lot more than he would have done for Quins and we really don’t want our chief playmaker spending so much time under the big boys. He/England became predicable and the Aussies did very well at shutting him down.
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I know Lawes prefers to play in the back row but for me he looks a better player in the 2nd row.
I don’t like a 12 playing as 1st receiver, that’s surely the 10’s job. I’m not saying Farrell shouldn’t play 12 but not 1st receiver. Marcus looks lost and unable to play his game.
Jack nowell is not international standard, our backs were really poor today.
Arundel - if someone keeps doing something special then he must be special. Doing something special all the time when you play week in week out means you are world class. It is very difficult to be world class (for obvious reasons) harry comes on against tired players he has just come onto the scene. It is completely different doing it when you play week in week out, this is why Irish want to wait and slowly build him up. Arundel maybe so good that he can still do special things every week but that’s a big risk as it could easily knock his confidence and stop his progress if he starts to find out he can’t do it every week. Big decision to make, because at this moment in time he does look very good
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In terms of Arundell his late tries change nothing for me. We’ve still no idea if he’s good enough or not. Australia had the game won when he came on. I’m not saying he isn’t a talent. But the game is chock full of players who make an eye catching contribution when the games done but struggle if put in. That said I’ve no idea what Jones was doing picking Nowell and Cockanasinga so he may as well have a shot on the wing. I don’t think there is any sort of team waiting to blossom unfortunately. Jones selection is all over the place. He’s been exposed as having zero strategy in terms of team development and he changes his coaching team every Tuesday. The results speak for themselves.
Let’s just check our bias here.
If a young Wade had come on and done exactly the same thing, how would we all be, as fans, responding right now?
Let’s enjoy the glimmers of hope!
Furthermore, as Shaun Edwards has always said, defence wins matches.
We created a couple of leaky holes in the second half.
We can tighten up there.
And we can be more ruthless in the opposition 22.
I’m still withholding judgment until the 2nd and 3rd game.
But….if you can’t get excited about Henry Arundell….we’ll, you’re just a sourpuss because he plays for Irish and not Wasps.
PS…if Wasps were still in North London, he would most probably be playing for us.
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Problem is Hopwood it’s no good waiting for the second or third test. We’ve been useless for two years or more. We can’t feed off “glimmers”. If you asked me to name the team Jones will want to pick in the RWC I’d have no idea. The problem is nor does he. On Arundell in particular I don’t think I have any bias. I freely admit he’s a talent no matter who he plays for. It will be exciting to hopefully see him develop and lord knows England need some raw pace. I’m just stating that with the amount of “first class” rugby he’s played we’ve absolutely no idea if he’s good enough. What’s his defence like? How is he under the high ball? Can he have impact against non tiring legs? Not saying the answer to any of these is no. Just that we don’t yet know.
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Eddie apparently said that Danny Care is sharper than he has been since 2018.
It is just prestidigitation. Drivel designed to obfuscate the fact that the Ben Youngs leather off the ball experiment has been sussed by every international team, and that only one team (SA) is anywhere near being able to win matches vs rivals with this plan. Trouble is, for great chunks of today we employd the same plan with different players. The latest iteration is to fit in as many "auxillary" forwards in as possible, but you can't get smething for nothing. We need a running game B, but the parts are not there becasue Eddie jettisoned them over the last 2-3 years.
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Having looked at all the video stuff, IMO Hill should be sent back to the UK economy class.
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Talking elsewhere - it occurred to me that if the Wasps full strength pack was available, they'd have most likely put away that Aussie pack and allowed even just a competent backline to win the game.
England have always been able to win games - by having an ugly imposing (not hair pulling) pack, good set piece, and ability to make metres and tackle. And yet we seem to have fallen off even that basic requirement.
And perhaps this performance like the 6Ns one's suggest we really miss the class of May and Watson, (and Slade when at 13) and a fit Sinckler, and Launch for power.
But something is rotten in the state of Denmark, so to speak. And seems to have been, too often, since after squeezing a win vs France seconds in that Autumn Cup....
I just don't know what it is we're trying to do
In 2018, in SA, I didn't feel this low.....after losing the first two tests.....
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No real idea if there’s anything in it but I wonder how team morale is. Some of the most dominant personalities in the team George, Itoje, Farrell, Vunipola x 2 have spent the season shouting in other peoples faces, largely when they’ve failed. Can’t see that sitting well. Throw in two Bath players who have spent a season being mullered and add Hill who I’ve never seen have a good game and maybe you get what we got?
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Watching the Wales game, and look at what can happen when you have a proper predator in the backs. Speed of thought and frame from Rees-Zammit
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Watching the Wales game, and look at what can happen when you have a proper predator in the backs. Speed of thought and frame from Rees-Zammit
That - and what looks like a team understanding their game plan and tactics. Regardless of the result - that's a quality half from Wales.
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Pace. Scares oppositions.
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Citing for Hill?
Edit: With link:
https://twitter.com/liquorbox_/status/1543182464486481921?s=20&t=Rb1nswkWzSJ9nfQhSBrFLg
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No real idea if there’s anything in it but I wonder how team morale is. Some of the most dominant personalities in the team George, Itoje, Farrell, Vunipola x 2 have spent the season shouting in other peoples faces, largely when they’ve failed. Can’t see that sitting well. Throw in two Bath players who have spent a season being mullered and add Hill who I’ve never seen have a good game and maybe you get what we got?
Yes, I think there is a realisation that their time has passed [Saracens players]. Jones has handled them very badly IMO. Let us see if they can get their heads right for the last two tests.
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Citing for Hill?
Edite With link:
https://twitter.com/liquorbox_/status/1543182464486481921?s=20&t=Rb1nswkWzSJ9nfQhSBrFLg
Don't think so, not red card threshold
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No real idea if there’s anything in it but I wonder how team morale is. Some of the most dominant personalities in the team George, Itoje, Farrell, Vunipola x 2 have spent the season shouting in other peoples faces, largely when they’ve failed. Can’t see that sitting well. Throw in two Bath players who have spent a season being mullered and add Hill who I’ve never seen have a good game and maybe you get what we got?
Yes, I think there is a realisation that their time has passed [Saracens players]. Jones has handled them very badly IMO. Let us see if they can get their heads right for the last two tests.
Smith will never be able to play his own game with Farrell in the team trying to take centre stage
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I saw that first Hill 'face strike' and was surprised he wasn't pulled up and carded for it to be honest. He did little else other than try and mix it up and donkey around for the rest of the game.
I think the RFU will find their chickens coming home to roost in the next few months for sticking with a busted flush in EJ. He's been head coach for what - six years now, so there's nothing new in the tactics or set up, no evolution in any aspect. The players he took for this tour took England back to a core group from 2-3 years ago, so they have no excuses. Since Borthwick left the set up Jones has scratched around with various iterations looking for a game plan.
Our back three were poor today. We have no attacking gameplay and do very little in the red zone.
Itoje's line out screaming was cringeworthy and made me ashamed of England rugby.
Apart from the first 20 mins (when we created nothing much), we had little control and precision and struggled to build phases.
Farrell still looks like he considers himself captain elect to me - he was deciding whether to kick the pens, consulted little with Lawes and gave the talk to the huddle at the end of the game. If he's not able to back off and respect Lawes, then I wonder how toxic his influence is. I thought some of his decisions to kick points were overly conservative.
Having wasted the last three years wandering drunkenly up a cul-de-sac, there's little chance of sobering up and finding the way back loaded with a definitve purpose in time for the next WC, so EJ will just revert to type and pick the same side with the same tactics as last time round. I can't see that fooling too many opponents.
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You know what...I'm actually going to check my own bias.
For the past week, I've been looking through my 'optimistic' bias lenses and only searching for the positives.
However, reading everyone's comments, the newspaper reports, the punditry, etc....I'm obviously living on a different planet.
I feel a bit deluded.
I'm obviously seeing something different.
Henceforth, I'm going to sit back for the summer and watch from a distance.
Not because I'm offended by any comments, but purely because I can't work out what the f**ks going on.
I need my off-season, too.
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English rugby is a strange beast.
Essentially, we have money and numbers on our side compared with most other nations.
Over the years, we see dynamic, powerful, attractive rugby from the likes of New Zealand, Australia, even Wales.
Yet, England's best years are often forwards based arm wrestles. Even back in the early 2000s, we were often referred to as playing 10 man rugby, even with the likes of Robinson, Greenwood, Catt etc involved.
In more recent years, South Africa, and at times Ireland have beaten us at that game too.
Our rugby history is based on a forwards dominated game, so it's not necessarily wrong for England to continue down that path.
As Wasps fans though, we often want more, a lot more, especially from the backs.
Seeing Farrell in a backline feels very anti-wasps, Farrell as Captain is even worse.
I do often wonder if I spend too much time hoping for something from England that will never happen regardless of who is in charge
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I'd like to see Jack selected for next weekend's game. He has more tp offer that what we saw yesterday from England's back row.
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Anyone who'd like another view point - this is the Rugby Analyst from YT - had a press pass at the BaaBaas game too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhsSPvjejxQ
Interesting POV - I'm prob much on the same page
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Anyone who'd like another view point - this is the Rugby Analyst from YT - had a press pass at the BaaBaas game too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhsSPvjejxQ
Interesting POV - I'm prob much on the same page
Thanks for the link.
Interesting point that we don't know if England's system works because we haven't got the backs to exploit it. Which raises the question, why build a system if you haven't got the talent to exploit it? I supposes that screams Arundel for the next game.
I think Greenwood was right when he said its Farrell or Smith but not both. Preferably Smith, although who goes to 12 is the real question.
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It’s a curiosity in the game at the moment. If you take Esterhuizen out where are the quality 12’s.
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You know what...I'm actually going to check my own bias.
For the past week, I've been looking through my 'optimistic' bias lenses and only searching for the positives.
However, reading everyone's comments, the newspaper reports, the punditry, etc....I'm obviously living on a different planet.
I feel a bit deluded.
I'm obviously seeing something different.
Henceforth, I'm going to sit back for the summer and watch from a distance.
Not because I'm offended by any comments, but purely because I can't work out what the f**ks going on.
I need my off-season, too.
Your opinion is your opinion Hopwood. Differing views maketh the forum! Hope you are not away too long.
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It’s a curiosity in the game at the moment. If you take Esterhuizen out where are the quality 12’s.
It's often said that England haven't had a quality 12 since Greenwood.
It's why multiple coaches have tried to pin their hopes on Tuilagi, and when that inevitably fails we get Farrell.
I do think that behind England's pack, if we had the likes of Care, Smith, Slade (13), and back 3 like May, Watson and even Arundel (i.e. pace), then I could play 12 and we should still win games
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Interesting point that we don't know if England's system works because we haven't got the backs to exploit it. Which raises the question, why build a system if you haven't got the talent to exploit it? I supposes that screams Arundel for the next game.
I think Greenwood was right when he said its Farrell or Smith but not both. Preferably Smith, although who goes to 12 is the real question.
Yeah - I though that too. Thing is - when Watson and May were injured - we picked all 6Ns and into this game - back three's lacking in raw pace. We were winning games with lightweight centres in OF and JJ. Perhaps Ford was handy too? What seems to be a problem now is that perhaps OF is beyond his best, no one of JJ's pace and vision is around and the wingers aren't quick. We have the opportunities to pick fast men - but seem to think people like Thorley, Radwan and others aren't good enough? Perhaps Freeman is an option?
But the basic point remains - as you note - why play a system we're unable to exploit?
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Citing for Hill?
Edite With link:
https://twitter.com/liquorbox_/status/1543182464486481921?s=20&t=Rb1nswkWzSJ9nfQhSBrFLg
Don't think so, not red card threshold
good call.
https://twitter.com/willgkelleher/status/1543601328509026304?s=21&t=xqkqRrlZuXA2ponpxQFUuA
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Tom Curry has been ruled out of the rest of England's tour of Australia because of concussion. Flying home.
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Tom Curry has been ruled out of the rest of England's tour of Australia because of concussion. Flying home.
Cue Jack?
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Has to be likely I think. Although Eddie may call a lock up to play there.
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Tom Curry has been ruled out of the rest of England's tour of Australia because of concussion. Flying home.
Cue Jack?
Probably not.
Can see us reverting completely to a ‘power’ game now.
Ludlum at 7, Lawes at 6 and Isiekwe and Chessum covering 4/5/6.
I think if we’d been quicker at the breakdown and had started, Ludlum/Willis and Curry and Lawes at 5 we might have pipped them. Can’t see us playing like that now and we’ll just go for a lot of pick and gos and rolling mauls
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I know Lawes prefers to play in the back row but for me he must play as a lock, him and itoje is a great pairing.
I’m happy about curry not being able to be picked, he just gives away too many penalties. For me Ludlum at 6 and Jack at 7 Billy at 8.
If smith is 10 then he must be 1st receiver and Farrell 2nd. Smith must dictate the game not Farrell. Or play Farrell at 10 but then I don’t know who plays 12, it’s a very poor choice possible our worst position