Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Shugs on June 09, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
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Just seen a photo doing the rounds on FB (validity therefore not confirmed) of most of those leaving at the end of the season. Along with those confirmed also in it are Brookes, Sirker and McIntyre. No Sopoaga or Zhvania (but they may not have been around).
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Just seen it too, Sopoaga been moving out his house according to his Twitter, as for ZZ who knew how easy it was too misplace a large Georgian prop over the past few months!
https://twitter.com/Wasps_Guy/status/1402709925097246723?s=19
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So Sirker and Big Mac look like being off. Also Keiron looks confirmed.
Wonder if that means the other questionables are staying (eg Jimmy, Watson etc)
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Shame about Sirker and Mac.
Especially Sirker. Stupidly fast, guess he couldn't ever work on the rest of his game.
Guess that explains the additional winger we're looking for...
But then weirdly means we'll be needing another prop yet we're not rumoured to be looking for one.
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Hadn't thought of that angle Neils but possibly, yes. No Vukasinovic or Miller in it either.
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Shame about Sirker and Mac.
Especially Sirker. Stupidly fast, guess he couldn't ever work on the rest of his game.
Guess that explains the additional winger we're looking for...
But then weirdly means we'll be needing another prop yet we're not rumoured to be looking for one.
Not sure. Zhvania has basically not featured for an age so I reckon we've probably just replaced McIntyre with Hislop.
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Hadn't thought of that angle Neils but possibly, yes. No Vukasinovic or Miller in it either.
I reckon TV3 has another season. Jack referred to him as part of Team Rehab up to Christmas (Ruck Podcst). Also wasn't Rob said to have signed an extension but nobody knew what length.
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But then weirdly means we'll be needing another prop yet we're not rumoured to be looking for one.
Start a rumour time then? A loosehead. If they are EPS and play for a Prem club, they wouldn't be announced, not even signed, until after they had played us for the last time. So, maybe plays for the Exiles, or Tigs?
Which reminds me, a saw a lad who was at school with my daughter (and who I taught) to to age 16, and then off he went to Cheltenham College, then Oxford Brookes. I guess would therefore make him 'local(ish)' (for Wasps). His mum and dad live maybe 10-15 miles from my house. Curiously, he is a loosehead. Curiously, he plays for the exiles, indeed he played (started) last week. He signed for Irish 2 seasons ago:
https://www.london-irish.com/news/london-irish-bolster-front-row-stocks-and-two-players-resign-with-the-club/bp2175/
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Gutted about McIntyre and Sirker.
Honestly not sure what the issue with Sirker is. Absolute no substitute for pace and he has it in buckets, he seemingly works so hard on his game with extra speed sessions etc away from the club, looks a very dedicated trainer - also having seen him play a few times in the a league and on YouTube recently I also think he is very sound in defence.
Something must be going on here though behind the scenes that we are not privy to as we surely would have seen him play by now - when he lit up the 7s a few years back I honestly thought he would have burst through in a Rees-Zammit kind of way but sadly the injury may have played its part - wonder if he has something better lined up but has potentially missed the boat for the GB 7s
The signing of Mehson was suspicious when it happened and feared Sirker might be off - also Watson getting the start last week probably meant he was staying too ahead of Sirker.
I wish him the best of luck as the kid could be a star.
Mehson however looks a good replacement and with Bacon, Williams and a few younger guys coming up we should be well stocked for a while yet
McIntyre is a club legend now and has been with us for so long through the ups and downs. Absolutely good enough to mix it at the top but fear because of his time at the club he’s probably on a pretty decent wage now which is sadly not getting us value for money with all of the concussions and other injuries. Potentially Nearchou already has taken his spot with Hislop coming in as third choice.
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Shame about Sirker and Mac.
Especially Sirker. Stupidly fast, guess he couldn't ever work on the rest of his game.
Guess that explains the additional winger we're looking for...
But then weirdly means we'll be needing another prop yet we're not rumoured to be looking for one.
Not sure. Zhvania has basically not featured for an age so I reckon we've probably just replaced McIntyre with Hislop.
That's really weird if Zhvania isn't leaving, I assumed he was...
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Shame about Sirker and Mac.
Especially Sirker. Stupidly fast, guess he couldn't ever work on the rest of his game.
Guess that explains the additional winger we're looking for...
But then weirdly means we'll be needing another prop yet we're not rumoured to be looking for one.
Not sure. Zhvania has basically not featured for an age so I reckon we've probably just replaced McIntyre with Hislop.
That's really weird if Zhvania isn't leaving, I assumed he was...
ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
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Yes, sorry, wasn't suggesting ZZ was staying - more that we didn't need to replace someone who hasn't featured.
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I have a sneaky feeling Zhvania is under contract for another season. Whilst I doubt Lee would have stopped him from leaving had an offer cropped up, nothing did. With McIntyre out of contract, he's the one who had to go.
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
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There was someone on FB a while ago who knew Zhvania well apparently and said he was under contract for next year but surely he would have played by now if that was the case, hasn’t even been travelling reserves
imagine he is long gone already
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There was someone on FB a while ago who knew Zhvania well apparently and said he was under contract for next year but surely he would have played by now if that was the case, hasn’t even been travelling reserves
imagine he is long gone already
There was also something about him being being out of favour. He isn't fond of a lot of coaching methods.
In football he'd be sold by now, but in rugby union players just stay until it ends.
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Shocked that Sirker and McIntyre are leaving.
Sirker has been a try scoring machine for the Development XV. Perhaps McIntyre hasn’t played enough recently but I thought his re-signing was a formality. He has been a great servant. Big shame.
Suspect ZZ left some time ago.
Best wishes to all the leavers.
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Think Nearchou played Loosie in the recent U23 game with Hardwick at TH
(Pleasants at LH and Cordice at TH coming through after that)
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Think Nearchou played Loosie in the recent U23 game with Hardwick at TH
(Pleasants at LH and Cordice at TH coming through after that)
I was looking at young Rob Hardwick on the Development team footage v LI. His Dad played for Barkers Butts then Cov before joining London Irish. One to keep an eye on I think.
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Think Nearchou played Loosie in the recent U23 game with Hardwick at TH
(Pleasants at LH and Cordice at TH coming through after that)
I was looking at young Rob Hardwick on the Development team footage v LI. His Dad played for Barkers Butts then Cov before joining London Irish. One to keep an eye on I think.
Very much so I think. Got into a bit of trouble in the past, which is why he left Leicester (like his brother too) but hopefully that is all behind him. At U18s he was tipped for the very top.
His brother is still without a club too I believe and could be a great option for anyone moving forward at 10/12
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Think Nearchou played Loosie in the recent U23 game with Hardwick at TH
(Pleasants at LH and Cordice at TH coming through after that)
That was the way round posted on here when a team sheet was put up.
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Sirker probably wants to play some regular rugby given his past injuries which is most likely not to happen at Wasps now and probably not likely at another Prem club yet, his best option for that would be Championship or even US league if he stays injury free.
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Played LH in u23 game recently as well as for Benetton and for England u18 / 19 previously but your right the website says TH also says can play hooker!
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ZZ probably home already, LHs of West, Harris, Hislop, Nearchou still pretty strong, potentially 2 internationals in there before next season starts.
Nearchou is tight head according to Wasps website player profile. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Played LH in u23 game recently as well as for Benetton and for England u18 / 19 previously but your right the website says TH also says can play hooker!
Fair enough!
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Brookes, McIntyre, Sirker now confirmed. No mention of Zhvania. Given that this is a "group" leaver announcement that seems odd. Or maybe they just knew the cat was out of the bag with the picture doing the rounds?
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Confirmation from the offy.
Trio to leave Wasps at the end of the season
https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/trio-to-leave-wasps-at-the-end-of-the-season/ (https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/trio-to-leave-wasps-at-the-end-of-the-season/)
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And from Bobby Bridge:
Two props with a vast amount of Premiership experience are heading out of the Ricoh Arena club
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/rugby-transfer-news-wasps-brookes-20780327 (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/rugby-transfer-news-wasps-brookes-20780327)
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I think the cat was let out of the bag early, given Jeff took his Instagram post down.
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The more I read on this the more I think the scenario is that Wasps possibly wanted to retain McIntyre but ZZ is still in contract. So we lose McIntyre and retain ZZ by dint of that.
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Brookes we were expecting, a loss but not much can be done if he is off to Toulon for his last big pay day..
Sirker is a shame, would have loved to see him develop but as has been mentioned elsewhere, if he can't get a start in the Championship and maybe wants away to get some game time, it may be for thebest. Have a feeling he might come back to haunt Wasps in the future...
Don't think anyone saw McIntyre leaving! real shame but he hasn't really played much rugby in the last 2 years with injuries so maybe its a good time to let him go?
JTA might be in the head masters office later for letting the cat out the bag :)
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Don't think anyone saw McIntyre leaving! real shame but he hasn't really played much rugby in the last 2 years with injuries so maybe its a good time to let him go?
Personally speaking and I know I am being wise after the event, but I'm not actually surprised (but sad) that Chesty is off. With all his assorted injuries, particularly concussion issues, I expected we would have been reluctant to continue with another contract. I think it may be a sensible move for him to decide enough is enough.
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The more I read on this the more I think the scenario is that Wasps possibly wanted to retain McIntyre but ZZ is still in contract. So we lose McIntyre and retain ZZ by dint of that.
I think that sums it up. Whilst we could have paid up ZZ's contract it would have counted as part of the cap.
Interesting snippet from Bobby's article:
However, the official Wasps announcement - and an image that was published on social media by a player last night before being swiftly deleted - did not contain the names/faces of three players understood to be at the end of their current deals in Theo Vukasinovic, Rob Miller and Ben Morris - raising hopes that they could be remaining with the Black and Golds.
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Best of luck to all 3, but special mention to McIntyre who has been a fantastic servant to the club through good times and bad (including really, really bad!).
Not entirely surprised he's off though. Given how much time he's lost to injury in recent seasons, and the money he's likely to be on given his time with the club he can't be giving especially good value for money. It's a shame as he is a true Wasps legend. No room for sentiment when the club are looking at contracts though.
10 years have flown by! Made his debut off the bench at Sandy Park in Sept 2011, replacing Bob Baker in a team that included Riki Flutey, Tim Payne and Richard Birkett just to give an idea of how long ago that was!
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I am very sorry that Si Mac might be leaving, tho' given al his injuries lately maybe that is understandable. I would be very sorry to lose Rob Miller and extremely reluctant to say farewell to Ben Morris who has played so superbly this season.
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I am very sorry that Si Mac might be leaving, tho' given al his injuries lately maybe that is understandable. I would be very sorry to lose Rob Miller and extremely reluctant to say farewell to Ben Morris who has played so superbly this season.
Likewise. However Rob did get a contract extension but nobody knows how long. Ben being suspended may be under the surgeon for a nose fix. I would be sad if he goes because he has never, in my eyes, failed us no matter where he has been put.
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Thanks Neil.
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The original photo that JTA put up appeared to be after a ceremony to say good bye. They were all holding Wasps shirts with their numbers & names on which the had just been presented with.
Given that I can't see any other players leaving (Lima must have already gone given his possessions have already moved to France!), fingers crossed!
As others have said, shame if Wasps are paying ZZ but he's not playing... if thats the case, I would think there's a loop hole somewhere so he can be terminated?
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Don't think anyone saw McIntyre leaving! real shame but he hasn't really played much rugby in the last 2 years with injuries so maybe its a good time to let him go?
Agreed.
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As others have said, shame if Wasps are paying ZZ but he's not playing... if thats the case, I would think there's a loop hole somewhere so he can be terminated?
Not I hope with extreme prejudice ::) That would be just a step too far - even for Wasps ;)
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As others have said, shame if Wasps are paying ZZ but he's not playing... if thats the case, I would think there's a loop hole somewhere so he can be terminated?
Not I hope with extreme prejudice ::) That would be just a step too far - even for Wasps ;)
I think loopholes like that only apply if he's injured.
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If McIntyre is leaving because the coaches have decided that we have sufficient quality at LH and that he hasn't played enough recently to warrant another contract when money and salary cap are tight, then I'll be sad, but I'm ok with it
However, if we're letting him go because another player is on a huge salary and has thrown a strop and won't play, then I'd be livid.
I know that ZuZu was an emergency signing when we had very few alternative options, and quite frankly, he played well for us, but if you're a professional player and expect to keep earning your money, then you should do the training as instructed and perform to the best of your abilities at all times.... Anything short suit6 be considered a breach of contract.
I hope I'm doing him a disservice with this post and that we see him attempting drop goals or trying to skin a winger on the outside next season
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Of the 10 confirmed leavers I think there are only 3 (Taylor, Brookes and maybe Rowlands) that I think we might miss and one (Si Mac) I would keep for sentimental reasons. But even Taylor and Brookes have had their injury absences and probably are quite costly.
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Agreed BdeB. I like our recruitment this year. The players you highlight will be missed. But when you break it down I see it as:
McIntyre: Great servant but limited game time of late so Hislop replaces. Unproven but likely to be available more.
Brookes: Back spasms and other injuries becoming frequent. Great in the scrum, not so elsewhere. Scholtz looks like for like but again, has less miles on the clock.
Taylor: Been good last few weeks but often out before. Well stocked here with Cruse, Oghre, Frost and Barbeary.
Rowlands: Pretty much like for like with Stooke but no international interruption likely for Stooke.
You throw in the other bits like Mehson, Crossdale and Millar-Mills plus whoever is to come and I think we're stronger.
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/georgian-pair-to-leave-wasps-at-the-end-of-the-season/
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/georgian-pair-to-leave-wasps-at-the-end-of-the-season/
One expensive prop and a promising lock now gone. A bit surprising.
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If McIntyre is leaving because the coaches have decided that we have sufficient quality at LH and that he hasn't played enough recently to warrant another contract when money and salary cap are tight, then I'll be sad, but I'm ok with it
However, if we're letting him go because another player is on a huge salary and has thrown a strop and won't play, then I'd be livid.
I know that ZuZu was an emergency signing when we had very few alternative options, and quite frankly, he played well for us, but if you're a professional player and expect to keep earning your money, then you should do the training as instructed and perform to the best of your abilities at all times.... Anything short suit6 be considered a breach of contract.
I hope I'm doing him a disservice with this post and that we see him attempting drop goals or trying to skin a winger on the outside next season
Ok well, I'm not so livid
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What do we think the strategy is here?
Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?
We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!
I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.
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What do we think the strategy is here?
Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?
We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!
I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.
I tend to think that the strategy has one eye on the salary cap reductions, and another on a mid-to-long term squad.
I suspect that there's been a review of players who have been injured a number of times over the past few seasons, with a view to ensuring that the majority of the squad we have going forwards are regularly available to play.
Couple that with a number of players who have made their own decision to leave and we end up looking like we're decimating the squad.
However, a major factor is the salary cap reduction.
We need to somehow bring in numbers while spending less money.
The only way that can be done is by removing higher paid players (Brookes, ZZ, McIntyre, TT etc) and replacing with cheaper options, often from other leagues.
Moreso than some other sports, I often feel that rugby is more about a team being more than the sum of its parts, rather than individual brilliance.
I.e. you can have the greatest centre on the planet in your team, but he won't be able to beat everyone single handedly.
Whereas you can often have a good team of players who support each other and ultimately overwhelm the opposition.
Obviously having both is best, but for mid/long term planning, I'd rather build a squad of like minded players focusing on team work, intensity and support
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What do we think the strategy is here?
Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?
We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!
I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.
I tend to think that the strategy has one eye on the salary cap reductions, and another on a mid-to-long term squad.
I suspect that there's been a review of players who have been injured a number of times over the past few seasons, with a view to ensuring that the majority of the squad we have going forwards are regularly available to play.
Couple that with a number of players who have made their own decision to leave and we end up looking like we're decimating the squad.
However, a major factor is the salary cap reduction.
We need to somehow bring in numbers while spending less money.
The only way that can be done is by removing higher paid players (Brookes, ZZ, McIntyre, TT etc) and replacing with cheaper options, often from other leagues.
Moreso than some other sports, I often feel that rugby is more about a team being more than the sum of its parts, rather than individual brilliance.
I.e. you can have the greatest centre on the planet in your team, but he won't be able to beat everyone single handedly.
Whereas you can often have a good team of players who support each other and ultimately overwhelm the opposition.
Obviously having both is best, but for mid/long term planning, I'd rather build a squad of like minded players focusing on team work, intensity and support
Not disagreeing with you but taking your review of injuries - would a certain J Willis not come into the extremely dodgy bracket.
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Agreed BdeB. I like our recruitment this year. The players you highlight will be missed. But when you break it down I see it as:
McIntyre: Great servant but limited game time of late so Hislop replaces. Unproven but likely to be available more.
Brookes: Back spasms and other injuries becoming frequent. Great in the scrum, not so elsewhere. Scholtz looks like for like but again, has less miles on the clock.
Taylor: Been good last few weeks but often out before. Well stocked here with Cruse, Oghre, Frost and Barbeary.
Rowlands: Pretty much like for like with Stooke but no international interruption likely for Stooke.
You throw in the other bits like Mehson, Crossdale and Millar-Mills plus whoever is to come and I think we're stronger.
To be fair, it is easy to say "like for like" on Brookes and point to his work around the pitch or time away. KB has been excellent at scrum time- does anyone think otherwise? JTA was universally heralded as a great signing, and then spent chunks of time in the seconds, contributing nothing to the first team when doing so. Now he has contributed this year having done that, but there is a huge question over the scrum still. Scholtz could be a great signing, of course, or another JTA who needs time to acclimatise. Truth is we do not know. I have heard some decent things about him here, but our scrum has been excellent with Brookes on the pitch, and that level of quality is hard to find. If Scholtz fails to perform in the scrum we will be weaker. If he performs well we could be ahead.
If Scholtz turns out to have scrum pen issues, where do we go? Alo/JTA split, I guess. We have seen this year that with poor maul we have struggled at times. Add in a dodgy TH issue and we would be royally up the creek. Of all the signings, Scholtz is the one I am hoping works out, because the guy he is replacing has helped given us a bit of scrum consistency this year.
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Neils...
I'll be honest, I'm extremely concerned about Jack.
It's amazing how well he came back after his last injury.
The pessimist in me isn't expecting us (and him) to be so lucky again, but I'm really really hope I'm wrong.
Ultimately, Jack for me is one of those few game winning individuals.
Even if he plays just 5 games per season, he's greatly increasing your chances of winning those 5 games so to some degree there may be different rules applied to him.
But if his performances weren't as good in the future following another major injury then there may need to be some difficult decisions made - ones that I'm glad I wouldn't have to make
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Westwaleswasp
If Alo can build more match fitness / stamina then we may find we already have a scrummaging replacement for Brookes.
I've been very impressed with Alo since his return, but he needs to scrummage for up to an hour per game to be a suitable option
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Neils...
I'll be honest, I'm extremely concerned about Jack.
It's amazing how well he came back after his last injury.
The pessimist in me isn't expecting us (and him) to be so lucky again, but I'm really really hope I'm wrong.
Ultimately, Jack for me is one of those few game winning individuals.
Even if he plays just 5 games per season, he's greatly increasing your chances of winning those 5 games so to some degree there may be different rules applied to him.
But if his performances weren't as good in the future following another major injury then there may need to be some difficult decisions made - ones that I'm glad I wouldn't have to consider
+1 very secretly.
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Agreed BdeB. I like our recruitment this year. The players you highlight will be missed. But when you break it down I see it as:
McIntyre: Great servant but limited game time of late so Hislop replaces. Unproven but likely to be available more.
Brookes: Back spasms and other injuries becoming frequent. Great in the scrum, not so elsewhere. Scholtz looks like for like but again, has less miles on the clock.
Taylor: Been good last few weeks but often out before. Well stocked here with Cruse, Oghre, Frost and Barbeary.
Rowlands: Pretty much like for like with Stooke but no international interruption likely for Stooke.
You throw in the other bits like Mehson, Crossdale and Millar-Mills plus whoever is to come and I think we're stronger.
To be fair, it is easy to say "like for like" on Brookes and point to his work around the pitch or time away. KB has been excellent at scrum time- does anyone think otherwise? JTA was universally heralded as a great signing, and then spent chunks of time in the seconds, contributing nothing to the first team when doing so. Now he has contributed this year having done that, but there is a huge question over the scrum still. Scholtz could be a great signing, of course, or another JTA who needs time to acclimatise. Truth is we do not know. I have heard some decent things about him here, but our scrum has been excellent with Brookes on the pitch, and that level of quality is hard to find. If Scholtz fails to perform in the scrum we will be weaker. If he performs well we could be ahead.
If Scholtz turns out to have scrum pen issues, where do we go? Alo/JTA split, I guess. We have seen this year that with poor maul we have struggled at times. Add in a dodgy TH issue and we would be royally up the creek. Of all the signings, Scholtz is the one I am hoping works out, because the guy he is replacing has helped given us a bit of scrum consistency this year.
Fully agree. No disrespect to Scholtz and I hope it works out too, but Kieran is a different beast. Just looks to be a phenomenal physical specimen and I reckon even on a bad day, he would be a nightmare to scrummage against. He hit good form with us and it wasn’t long ago that we had scrum issues season after season.
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Take your point WWW. Reading between the lines with Blackett saying Kieron was leaving "a year early" I suspect we didn't want him to go but with an offer from Toulon on the table we probably had little choice. So be it. I'll monitor the amount of games they get out of him. Scholtz is a rock solid scrummager, maybe not as good as Brookes but he'll probably play more.
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Westwaleswasp
If Alo can build more match fitness / stamina then we may find we already have a scrummaging replacement for Brookes.
I've been very impressed with Alo since his return, but he needs to scrummage for up to an hour per game to be a suitable option
Yes, Alo looks to be a big unit and hopefully can offer 50 -60 mins. I will sleep easier if he comes on.
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Take your point WWW. Reading between the lines with Blackett saying Kieron was leaving "a year early" I suspect we didn't want him to go but with an offer from Toulon on the table we probably had little choice. So be it. I'll monitor the amount of games they get out of him. Scholtz is a rock solid scrummager, maybe not as good as Brookes but he'll probably play more.
If he is a rock solid scrummager we will be well placed, but it is vital that he can show it in a Wasps shirt.